Level 1 Start - The Poll

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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Do you support a starting level at higher than level 1? (NB: Excluding ECLs etc)

Poll ended at Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:24 pm

Yes
29
49%
No
25
42%
Maybe / I Don't Know
5
8%
 
Total votes: 59

Veilan
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Veilan »

Swift wrote:If the issue is simply the survivability of level 1s, you could just do what DDO did and give everyone a feat that grants them +20 hp :lol:
Yus, though that's a little extreme. Hence why I suggested we up toughness to a mish-mash between PnP and NWN 2, letting it give a couple first points at once, but retaining it's scaling value. That way, you can have a character that's tougher than everyone else on level 1... if you wish so... and take the feat. That way, it's not entirely a freebie, while also maintaining simulationism over narrativism: Your character does actually have that feat and toughness, he earnt it with his feat-pick.

To me, that's a compromise... especially added on top that we have made level 1 pretty survivable, through enemy weaponry (hardly any x3, more than enough -1 damage), general design (roads mostly safe, clear IC warnings in quests, no über tough spawns static) and with a lot of hints, both IC and OOC, that you should party up to enjoy the game.

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rorax
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by rorax »

WHERE ARE ALL THOSE 54 PEOPLE WHO VOTED SO FAR?!??!?
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Regalis
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Regalis »

My thoughts on the toughness rework:

1. Rangahs: They are supposed to get this at level 3. If they don't want to participate, they'll still get the bump at level 3. If they do want to participate, it really sucks to be them.

2. Collateral Damage: Depending upon exactly how toughness was reworked, this could have the most intrusive impact upon a lot of existing PCs of any of the solutions proposed. Not that I'd be mortified if I got a few more HP, but just something to keep in mind.
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Happycrow
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Happycrow »

My take thus far is that this is not a hard server to survive with at level one. I have seen much, much tougher. While my heart wouldn't shatter if folks started at 2... it just doesn't seem necessary. While "kicked to death by a pony" is an amusing way to die and lose a character (I mean, talk about the bad luck), making 2 isn't even remotely difficult.
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Veilan »

Regalis wrote:My thoughts on the toughness rework:

1. Rangahs: They are supposed to get this at level 3. If they don't want to participate, they'll still get the bump at level 3. If they do want to participate, it really sucks to be them.

2. Collateral Damage: Depending upon exactly how toughness was reworked, this could have the most intrusive impact upon a lot of existing PCs of any of the solutions proposed. Not that I'd be mortified if I got a few more HP, but just something to keep in mind.
You won't be affected, my proposition is simply to have toughness "loan" a few HP up front, but basically stay at 1/level to not kill off its long-run usefulness.

So, if it, say, loans +3, you won't notice any change at level 3.

Personally, I think it's an unobtrustive compromise, not only for survivability but also between PnP (+3 flat -> underpowered for a starting feat) and NWN 2 (1/lvl).

It's also optional, and would represent an "in-game" thing; that ability to take more punishment than others is quite real and reflected by that feat your character has.

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hollyfant
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by hollyfant »

Something I just thought of: the difference between a first level and a second level character is enormous, while the difference between third and a fourth level ones isn't that big. Which means that starting at a higher level carries with it a greater risk of griefing: a new, "expendable" PC could pick a fight with an established character and actually have a good chance of winning. Especially if they're built for the sole purpose of killing a specific PC.

I would bloody well hope this isn't something that happens often (if at all), but it could happen.
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Mirabai
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Mirabai »

Veilan wrote:
oldgrayrogue wrote:
Seriously. We are not talking about jumping to epic levels here. Almost guaranteed to die if you leave town alone does, however, equal level 1. Which sucks. I don't want people to be able to tell dragons to piss off at character creation, but I also don't want to have to play them cowering and crying in a corner if an orc walks by in order to OOC survive. Its not risk free "narativism" its freaking 1000xp that many people earn in like a day and a half.

-Nuff said.
Take your pick, mate. Either it's significant difference, in which case my argument is entirely valid... or it's not a big deal reached in 1 1/2 days legitimately, in which case I don't see the reason to push so hard for it. Can't have both sides at the same time.
At the risk of sticking my foot in my mouth by totally misinterpreting OGR's meaning.... I think what he was trying to get across when he mentioned how some people can earn that 1000xp in a day and a half is that yes, for some it is possible to do this quickly so as to not languish in the cowering phase of levels 1 and 2 for overly long. Others, however, might not have all kinds of time to find a group escort to accomplish all sorts of quests, or to stay logged on to the server for hours and hours accumulating XP from the scripts. For those people levels 1 and 2 can last for weeks of their gaming time, weeks of cowering in corners and trying not to have a heart attack every time another PC walks up behind theirs and says "boo".

For the person who has plenty of time and willingness to earn that kind of XP in such a short time, a level 2 or 3 start might not be such a big deal, but for the latter type of player it will likely come as a much-appreciated boon, one that doesn't seem to be unbalancing or have the potential to "break" the game.
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NickD
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by NickD »

Cloud_Dancing wrote:3. Accrued XP be turned down 25% and idle times shortened to two minutes idle
(seeing a PC with more than 75% accrued total XP is what prompted this thought. That means only 25% of that players XP came from DM time or static quests over a span of nearly 10 levels.)
This shouldn't be so surprising to you. XP from static spawns drops drastically and required XP goes up as you go up in levels. An almost 10th level character would have to farm pretty hard to get more XP from static content than the RPXP scripts.

And some people don't get a whole lot of DM time. I don't think it'd be a very good idea to penalise people for not getting DMed enough.
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Ksiel
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Ksiel »

Try months for some of us. I have been playing my current PC, which is a barb, because my previous 3 pc's with well thought out bio's bit the dust with in 2 weeks. So I rolled this guy up, he is tough, rugged, and I have never played this type of pc, hoping he would survive. I put little to no time in his background and decided to play him off the cusp so to speak. I still would prefer to be playing one of my other 3, but those story lines are gone now... poof...that quick. On another note, just this weekend I broke level 3 after months of playing the barb.

I work close to 60 hours a week, I have twin 2 year olds and a 7 month old. Once I get them to bed, on the nights I am not too exhausted (which are few) I will pop on to play an hour or two. I do not have time to sit on the server all day and make level two within a week off the rp scripts.

For me the biggest benefit for a 2nd level start would open up background story. However, no matter what way you argue it, having another level of hp does increase your chances of surviving. It is simply the numbers. I don't want an ALFA rule change just because of my issues with not having as much time as others, but what I am seeing from this discussion is it is about 50% both ways.

Can we not just make it optional at character creation if you want to pull the lever and get your extra 1000 exp to boost you to level 2? Then everyone could be happy. If you want level 1, keep it, if you want level 2 do it.
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rorax
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by rorax »

Again....


1. Where are all the 56 people who voted in this poll so far?

2. If 1/3 of that number actually played , we had enough players to start at level 0 and go in large groups to enjoy the safety of numbers.

3. Since 56(so far) does not seems like a realistic number of people who actually do something around actively , i think participation should have been limited to people with some minimal number of votes.

4. I think that "comments" should have been forced as well, it seems some people changed their mind from NO to YES, i wonder what make people do 180 degrees turn in few days.

5. I think the decision of the majority should be respected(and it seems it goes to start at higher level than one now) but i can't help thinking the following:

Since during the beginning days of this poll , those who answered "NO" were almost x2 of those who answered "YES" , and then slowly over two weeks the gap was closed and now we favor "YES". I am GUESSING that most those of voted yes are :

1. New players who just look for easier start

2. Retired players who just visit the forums once in a while, and starting at higher level might actually bring them back.

3. Established players who died during the poll and look for easier start. Otherwise i can't explain how someone changed his decision from "NO" to "YES".

Now, those all 3 things are not necessarily bad ones. But each one should think if he wants those part of the communities to make the decision for the rest and take part in votes first places.

Yes, if i would build the democracy then kids who did not taste life yet should be prevented from voting and people who left the country and come back only to visit once in a while should be prevented as well.
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Veilan »

People who can play less than others are always at a disadvantage. The solution proposed by me to that was "diminishing returns" on xp per time frame: Say, the first 200 xp a week you get get a boost of 50%, the next 0%, the next -25%, the next -50%. Numbers random, just explaining the idea.

I have no clue why it was never implemented, because DMA then was strongly in favour, but I guess TA didn't like DMA and then there was a rush to live.

Sill, something like that would work far better to somewhat even the playing field than having everyone skipping level 1. Keep in mind this doesn't punish frequent players; they after all still gain more than casual attenders, just not proportionally more per playtime. It'd be a gentle, slight push to the middle, from both sides.

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Rotku
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Rotku »

rorax wrote:Again....


1. Where are all the 56 people who voted in this poll so far?

2. If 1/3 of that number actually played , we had enough players to start at level 0 and go in large groups to enjoy the safety of numbers.

3. Since 56(so far) does not seems like a realistic number of people who actually do something around actively , i think participation should have been limited to people with some minimal number of votes.
According to zicada (the latest numbers I could find) show that between the 7th and 14th of July we had 53 players active, logging into a server. In the three months leading up to the 14th, there were 96 players. The numbers are out there - they just hibernate when DM numbers are low (as they are now).
4. I think that "comments" should have been forced as well, it seems some people changed their mind from NO to YES, i wonder what make people do 180 degrees turn in few days.
Nonsense. Running any survey, you want to make things as simple as possible to get feedback. You add loops to jump through and the numbers will drop off. We want as many active ALFA members as possible answering, not just 10 noisy ones who like to post the same view a dozen times in a single thread.
5. I think the decision of the majority should be respected
One of ALFA's biggest faults over the years has been this black and white thinking. It's not one extreme or another. I see 46% voting Yes, and 44% voting No. This to me says COMPROMISE. Now if it were >75% voting one way, I might be sold on the black and white thing. Especially with such a big change as this, I need to see more than a 2% margin to view things in a black and white scale.
1. New players who just look for easier start

2. Retired players who just visit the forums once in a while, and starting at higher level might actually bring them back.

3. Established players who died during the poll and look for easier start. Otherwise i can't explain how someone changed his decision from "NO" to "YES".

Now, those all 3 things are not necessarily bad ones. But each one should think if he wants those part of the communities to make the decision for the rest and take part in votes first places.

Yes, if i would build the democracy then kids who did not taste life yet should be prevented from voting and people who left the country and come back only to visit once in a while should be prevented as well.
New players are our future. Past players do return often. And I think #3 is extremely pessimistic and quite frankly inaccurate.

I could argue that only those who have experienced the days when we had 2 PCs in ALFA should be able to vote, or maybe those who have been around long enough to have played NWN1 at it's peak. When you come to saying "No - you're too new, you can't vote" you get into muddy waters.

I could very well say you, rorax, are too new to have a vote - you weren't here in the early days of Live; you weren't here during the Quake; you weren't a part of the community when the charter was drafted up; you weren't around when the discussion that lead to the pillars were had; you weren't here when all the plans were laid for our transition into Neverwinter Nights 2. I could argue that you've got absolutely no idea what this community is about - no more so than someone who has been here a month.

I could say this, but I won't. It's a load of bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, one member's vote is the same as any other. Regalis' vote (who joined a month and a half ago) holds no more sway than Magile's vote (who has been here since the Beta days).

In the end of the day, I left the poll running for 14 days for a reason. It gives people a chance to discuss it, and change their mind.

My take on the poll? If it stays like this, with both Yes and No fairly close, I think change of some sort is needed. Whether that be a new starting level, or one of the other great suggestions to come out of this thread. Either way, so long as both are close, I'll definitely be pushing this onto the Admin and some change will happen.
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Blindhamsterman
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by Blindhamsterman »

this is why we love our iron fisted dictator. :D

I voted maybe initially, then switched to yes as people made comments and I found my oppinion was more toward yes than no.

Ultimately I think Rot has hit it on the nail, the votes are close (and actually most of the time have been close, at one point they were in favour of yes and at another heavily in favour of no, but mostly they've been very close) Because of them being so close, a change (even if minor) is likely needed, Im sure those folk that are on all the time wont begrudge someone who gets on once a week getting a slightly larger chunk of RP exp etc. Id also still be quite happy for people to be given level 2 starts based on back story made at DM discretion in a similar manner to the Extrordinary PC rules, which is essentially all a level 2 PC should be. The above resolution would be simple enough to implement as we already have to do this with ECL races, favoured souls etc.
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CloudDancing
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by CloudDancing »

1. Where are all the 56 people who voted in this poll so far?
While Rotku said Zicada has counted all these people, I am interested in these numbers.
Consistent Active Players on TSM/BG (logged in at least once a week on a weekly basis over the last two months) have been:

NES
Rorax
CukCuk
Ravin
Uniskorne
Ksiel
Grease
Erevain
Keryn
Causk
Gribo
SSM
Nuran
dirsa
Sion
OGR
Paazin
JLM
Regas
Magile
Kelmont
Swift
Mr. D
Aitiana
Regalis
IKP
Randomrper
Danielmn
Mord
Brother Humphrey
Durgeon Darkhelm
Velian
*Isenheart

Active Live DMs:
HDM Sand
Dm Cloud
DM JLM
DM Danielmn
DM Mord (recently)
DM Swift (when possible)
DM Rotku (when possible)

Building DMs/Admin: I can't comment on who did what but I know HDM Curm, DM Hollyinfant, DM Rotku, and DM Swift have been running the background shows for TSM.

So roughly 35-40 players with the odd visitors missing from this list.

Since I started as DM, on TSM, at least 5 players have quit after low level permadeath to strongly invested RP characters soloing or road spawns(many during that 96 pop period) and 5 more because they just came to fool around here and mess with people as reported from their 'Something Awful" thread.

I do believe one thing above all. The game needs to encourage social and cooperative RP in true D&D style. And what DM every just drops you in the middle of a PnP game with no kit, no special character specific items, no consultation, and no party and expects you to go off without them on your merry way? I am all for building character in the Baby Boomer/pre-war era sense, honestly. But anything is worth a try once. And it it doesnt work, get rid of it. That is the beauty of the collective commons.
Last edited by CloudDancing on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NickD
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Re: Level 1 Start - The Poll

Post by NickD »

My vote is still No. I agree with Veilan on most of his points. But I do kind of like the idea of characters getting the +5/10/20/whatever HP item. Whether just for levels 1-3 or forever, I'm easy.
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NWN2: Gruuhilda, Tree Hugging Half-Orc
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