What Does Permadeath Cost Us

[stormsong]

When I decided to return to NWN2, I had some requirements. I wanted:

• A server ring with a living player base
  • Plenty of players!
  A strongly focused role play environment
  • Someplace that did not permit the abuses I found elsewhere.
  A go-live environment
  • I didn’t want to be tied up doing environmental coding building from the ground up.
  An environment based on the Forgotten Realms
  • I’m going to build the Vastian Coast or die trying!!!

No questions that ALPHA met my requirements with two exceptions. After a great deal of thought, I decided I could live with permadeath and the limitation to a single PC.

Unfortunately others who once made up my building team and friends who were looking for a place to play saw only the permadeath and the single PC limitation. Based on these, they have gone on to other servers or games.

With this I have begun to wonder, how many players are like my friends and do not join us only because of permadeath. Has there been a survey to see the number of players we are losing due to these limitations? How large would we be without it.

I’m open to being convinced and willing to learn. I’ll admit to never having played on a permadeath serverbefore so please educate me. How has this worked in the past and where has it gone? What are the advantages?

[johnlewismcleod]

I began NWN with permadeath play on Daggerford and then Haze PW's. At one point I left Daggerford for a time and tried some respawn servers. They were universally devoid of RP and the focus was entirely on leveling and gathering more gear.

Before finding ALFA I spent some months on Tales of Moonsea PW where they have respawn and an open server. I was amazed to find there was some good RP going on there, but after a few months it became clear I couldn't hak it. There were many RP, submersion failings in ToM, and all of them were the result of respawn, I believe.

One of the problems was the frequent "gear retrieval" missions. This happened when a PC died, he would respawn and immediately organize a mission to recover his own gear (presumably by roping in all the players IG he/she could further ensure no looting of his/her corpse ). I cannot tell you how annoying it is to be partied up with PC X and battle one's way into a rough area, only to discover then that the true mission is for PC X to loot PC X's self-same corpse .

The ability to respawn reduced death to a minor inconvenience, and fostered an attitude of "gear worship". Players seemed to care more about their PC's gear than their lives.

As I said, the level of RP at first seemed surprisingly high, but the insidious influence of respawn ruined immersion and made playing a bad joke, and playing evil a comic farce.

At one point I rolled up a half-orc thug who followed another PC into a dangerous area (actually I was hoping he could help the PC survive), but when my orc caught up, the PC was already dead. My orc chopped up the "bad guys" and looted the place, but when he re-emerged the "dead" PC was waiting outside with hastily recruited helper PC's to go back in and loot his own corpse.

I "tell" told the players that my fellow was not the type to give up loot, and that they would have to find an IC way to take it from him if they wanted it. I was informed by a senior player (our equivalent of an AR), that it was bad-form to loot the dead.

I could go on with this and become even more boring and pedantic, so I will summarize my thoughts:

Permadeath is essential to good, submersive RP. I believe if you get IG you will soon adjust and begin to appreciate what it does for our PW, and then you won't ever want to go back to respawn.

[Rotku]

About a year ago now, I did conduct a survey of all members that submitted an application within the last half year - both those accepted and rejected. While the number of replies (maybe 15 accept and 15 reject) were not enough to make any strong conclusions, there was very few, if any, comments about permadeath. However, one should note, that these people had got to the stage of submitting an application - that means that they were probably more accepting of permadeath.

[pangolin]

it costs you nothing. life is precious. there are spells that can return you. no access to such spells? such is permadeath.

[Mulu]

With this I have begun to wonder, how many players are like my friends and do not join us only because of permadeath. Has there been a survey to see the number of players we are losing due to these limitations? How large would we be without it.

Well first I'd like to disabuse the notion that permadeath, meaning the absence of raise dead, is needed for great rp. It isn't. I've played on many servers that had some fantistic rp, the best was probably the old DragonSpire by Hahnsoo of DMFI fame, and I think ALFA was the only one that didn't allow easy access to raise dead. The others all had scrolls of raise dead available from merchants or some other similar mechanism, karma gems, whatever, and were busy enough that you were usually in a party so you would get raised, or even if not in party your body would be found by a friend while you chatted with people in Limbo. Even some respawn servers have fantastic rp. I play on one now with a group of friends, and we have a blast. It's a narrativist server, so the goal is to make the story as interesting as possible, and that means keeping the same characters around. Of course, you keep your gear when you die there, so there are no "gear retrieval" missions. I hate those too, and find it horribly immersion breaking to have to loot your own corpse. On my current server, the in game explanation is "someone brought you to the temple to be raised, you should consider yourself fortunate." It works well enough. In a group with raise dead scrolls, you can avoid the need to respawn altogether, which is even more satisfactory.

Now, as to the OP, every restriction you place on the game is going to cost you players who do not tolerate the restriction, whatever the restriction is. Banning RDD's loses some players. Allowing only one PC is a big one. Permadeath with no raise options is probably the biggest one and it likely costs ALFA more players than it keeps. It sure keeps my wife away. Due to the inability to raise dead it isn't really even a D&D restriction, since that option is always available in PnP campaigns, for a price, from the local temple priest. There is no NPC raise dead option here that I'm aware of, at least not until you are high enough level to be able to cast it yourself. Good luck making it to that level. Nor can you buy a scroll of raise dead. So it's really [permadeath] + [no raise dead] that's a real killer to the player population, as well as the PC population, heh. That's more than just permadeath, it's probably better described as "one life only." Well, this is a simulationist server, after all.

The normal D&D experience is to be raised from the dead several times in the course of a campaign, so "one life only" is not a normal D&D experience. Anything that is a strong deviation from normal D&D is going to turn off a lot of players, but it's a core system here so it will never be changed. ALFA would rather die than change on this issue. "One life only" to the end, if you don't like it play elsewhere sort of thing.

I liked "one life only" in NWN1 where I had more twitch skills and better command of the game mechanics, and the bleed rules were easier. Coming close to dying when you know you will not be raised is very exciting. Being raised was technically a possibility there, but only for a select few. For most it would never be an option. In ALFA NWN2 it seems far less likely, to the point of being non-existant. If it's happened here I haven't heard of it. In a world where it is not possible to be raised from the dead for most if not all players and the bleed out rules are harsh, it's a pretty big limitation if you don't have sufficient twitch skills. I lack them in NWN2, which on a weekly basis keeps me from rolling up PC #4 here. Since I prefer to invest heavily in one PC rather than serially reroll, which I find both immersion breaking and a waste of time, I play elsewhere. It's not easy, because it's really about the only thing I don't like here, but it is literally game breaking for me to have to reroll frequently. I never get past Chapter 1 in a PC's book. It's like storytelling ADHD or something, "Well, we've written 10 pages, time to start a new book!"

If you do have the twitch skills to keep a PC alive in NWN2, it's a fun place. Great players, what few there are. Being big and heavily populated is no longer a goal in ALFA. Hasn't been for a long time, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Rotku]

good post mulu. One comment with regards to you nwn vs nwn2 comparioson, while I have certainly heard of fewer raises, likewise I have heard of a lot fewer deaths. The reason behind the lack of scrolls and the likes is I beleive that the current way nwn2 handles the spells, is that it doesn't zap the level. I'm sure once someone who has some free time and the knowledge, this will be fixed, but for now they are reliant on a dm.

[johnlewismcleod]

While I often find Mulu's posts on various topics insightful, I cannot disagree more with his analysis of permadeath. While I do agree that our current system of ressurection has some faults (and no doubt a HEEGZ is grimacing even to see me mention that topic ), I cannot disagree more that ready and common rez's do anything but dilute RP and submersion.

Those that are accustomed to frequently availing themselves of this rare and precious gift of the Gods are doubtless somewhat blind to the RP/submersion loss such a system entails, but to play in a world where only NPC and monster corpses have gear, and mysteriously PC's that die never do is farcical IMO.

I presume thieves and nasties only rob NPC's and monsters as well in such a world .

Loss of life is meant to be the ultimate loss any being can possibly experience. If it isn't there, then RP is nothing more than an XP and loot gathering exercise.

No thanks...I'll re-roll and be glad for it

[Mulu]

Some folks love "one life only," no matter how many times it makes them reroll. That's why they play here.

I cannot disagree more that ready and common rez's do anything but dilute RP and submersion.

Depends on your goal. If all you want is a day to day simulationist experience, hunger, thirst, fatigue, death and all that, and you are willing to sacrifice longer stories for it, then you are correct. If you are actually interested in portraying a story arc with significant character development, that is not possible in a re-roll environment. Unless of course you have the twitch skills to survive it, or you stay in town.

Those that are accustomed to frequently availing themselves of this rare and precious gift of the Gods...

That's not canon, that is just your personal taste. Take this example from Velsharoon canon:

Two rituals became fairly widespread. The Binding of the Crypt and the Pact of the Everlasting were two rituals performed by powerful clerics, allowing them to return as an undead creature or be raised from the dead automatically if they were slain.

There are many more examples in FR lore of raise dead being fairly commonly available to those with means or power. Let's face it, the scroll wouldn't have a price tag on it in the DMG if it were not available.

to play in a world where only NPC and monster corpses have gear, and mysteriously PC's that die never do is farcical IMO.

PC's that die there get transported to a local temple and raised from the dead. There is no corpse to loot. I should add I'm not saying it's the ideal system. I prefer no respawn, but reasonable access to raise dead.

Loss of life is meant to be the ultimate loss any being can possibly experience. If it isn't there, then RP is nothing more than an XP and loot gathering exercise.

If it's there too much, then RP is nothing more than a series of introductions. It's a false statement to claim that lacking permadeath means people don't rp. If you like, I'll post a chat log of our next session. Our last session was so funny I nearly fell on the floor laughing, all IC.

Anyway, to each his own. As to the OP, yes permadeath absolutely costs ALFA many players, but to those who remain it is a worthwhile sacrifice.

[Mulu]

As a quick add to the above, having already edited it way too many times, what I find in my respawn world are some freedoms that do not exist in a permadeath environment.

For example, you can build an absolutely nerfed PC, and yet go anywhere you want. You can create a ridiculously complex web of interrelationships and advance multiple plots, and you know that those relationships and plots will never be prematurely ended.

It has limits too, obviously. You can never kill a PC enemy, though the CvC rules there are extremely strict. Their emphasis is on cooperative play, like in a campaign. In fact, CvC shouldn't even happen in a traditional D&D environment. CvC comes from MUD's, not D&D. In D&D all PC's are protagonists. Narrativist style uses that D&D concept of all PC's being protagonists, so there is never any rational reason for lethal CvC. And of course, you can always write PC death. Happens all the time actually. The difference is you control the time, place and manner of your death, to make it meaningful. Because, "and then while searching for the mystic who could decipher the vision, Gorak died from a lucky crit by a goblin arrow," is never a very meaningful way to end a story. Especially if it's the same ending you've written the last 10 times in a row.

Of course, this is all personal taste; there is no right or wrong here.

[Kest]

*discussion wondering why NWN2 servers are inevitably failures*

PWs pretty much require a lot of non-DM content to maintain a decent population. Dynamic content is most interesting: wandering creatures, random traps, citybuilding, crafting, pvp, bounties, factions, certain quests.... players making a visible impact on an unpredictable world.

I keep seeing the same goddamned stupid policies that hurt servers more than necessary:

• ~ Separating their playerbase - settings that shun certain races or classes are not a good idea on a small pop server! Adding factions is like this too.
  ~ A one-character-rule lowers population - sometimes players want to try something different, or play with people that dont fit their current guy, or cant even reach other players. What are you going to do, tell them to give up their guys or go play somewhere else? That's retarded - like you need less people logged in.
  ~ PvP servers that still have CR in the Examine window.
  ~ Paper and pencil rules were made for DMs and small groups! They don't work well for PWs - stop clinging to them! You're probably not going to have a dedicated DM, a decent-sized party, or even balanced encounters.
  ~ Paper and pencil has resurrection/reincarnation, but permadeath servers that seek to emulate PnP tend to make it incredibly rare. Permadeath servers have a reputation for brutality that isn't always warranted, and this doesn't help that.
  ~ Not training their DMs and/or failing to remove problem ones.
  ~ Starting from level one with nothing to boost HP and then pushing players into combat on a permadeath server.
  ~ Making the world so damned dangerous that everyone huddles around a fire or a tavern.

And so on. You avoid arbitrary policies that can be summed up with "don't play." Don't bring a heavy hand down on soloing - those few can encourage others to login, if nothing else. Be careful making servers with wide level ranges, or it'll become troublesome for those players to interact with each other.

Funny, that. I always ignore the quests, and go straight to creating plots with other players. I'll agree on the shunning bit, you can't afford to do that unless you have a very large amount of players connected at all times. PWs should be large enough to make exploring fun, but they should concentrate the server's population in a central town or something, to foster player interaction.
One-player-only rules, yes, should not be, but if someone's abusing alts (a very stupid thing to do, but it fucks up things) and acting like every one of their characters belong to the same hivemind and share knowledge, then that player should be forced to stop that.

I think, indeed, that the thing that makes PWs fun to play in, is competent DMing, and a competent not-retarded playerbase, which is why all of them fail I think, and you can't blame anyone for that, it's just the way of things. NWN is all about having a DM doing shit you wouldn't ever encounter in an MMO.
It's all about letting the players interact with each other, craft their own plots and schemes, and have a veritable impact in the world.

Yeah, all of that is needed for a good server in addition to having DMs run events. And player plots are a kind of PvP, in my opinion

should also avoid punishing the entire playerbase by adding restrictions if there are few abusive players, you fix or get rid of the troublemakers.

its a lot for anyone to handle, unless you have some sort of really dedicated or cohesive team. because of that and since most permadeath or passworded PWs start out with a low population, they are probably doomed from the start

these are volunteers, and burnouts happen all too often

So overall, if you create a permadeath+passworded server with pnp mechanics in a dangerous, xenophobic setting with a one-character rule and malicious/mediocre DMs, you are Exodus

I've played on several servers now - light and heavy rp, permadeath and respawn. As a whole, NWN2 has been incredibly disappointing.

Personally i don't believe you can have meaningful roleplay without some form of permadeath. Now you don't need to make things brutal for players, or you can make resurrection more common like hauling bodies to a npc priest or even use systems with limited respawns like "fatepoints", but you need permadeath or all of your actions end up feeling a bit pointless.

You can't have heroes without risk and possible sacrifice. There's nothing heroic in that.

[dob85y]

There are two points here that I think are getting confused.

Permadeath = No respawn, thats all

As far as I was aware, Raise dead has not been banned, it just needs a 9th level cleric to cast it, and in PnP it requires 5000gp worth of diamonds

And it was also my impression that it was one of those spells that was only cast on those who were "of Faith".

I have seen those worlds that allow anyone to use a raise dead scroll.

I have played servers with and without permadeath, and there is one great difference that i have seen/felt. Attitude. Death is final, and characters and players act like it in a permadeath setting. To those in a respawn environment, death is an inconvenience that can be got over, and do, because they go back and learn from the mistakes they made first time around.

If you have ever faced death and survived, or had someone rescue you in a permadeath setting, there is no feeling that can describe it. It makes memorable moments and talking points. In the end I think permadeath dosnt cost us anything, it pays us with rewarding experiences as players.

Stormsong, what do your friends have to lose by trying it? Its great that you have a group of friends who play, it means that there isa great chance that they wont have to worry about death, if they stick together.

[johnlewismcleod]

Those that are accustomed to frequently availing themselves of this rare and precious gift of the Gods...

That's not canon, that is just your personal taste. Take this example from Velsharoon canon:

Two rituals became fairly widespread. The Binding of the Crypt and the Pact of the Everlasting were two rituals performed by powerful clerics, allowing them to return as an undead creature or be raised from the dead automatically if they were slain.

Velsharoon is the god of necromacy

[AcadiusLost]

Raise dead has not been banned, it just needs a 9th level cleric to cast it, and in PnP it requires 5000gp worth of diamonds.

This is correct, and to D&D 3.5E canon. The spell is in the game and implemented, works fine. If cast by a PC or an NPC (scripted or DM-possessed), it does indeed apply the proper XP penalty. If it is instead cast directly by DM avatars, no XP penalty is applied, on the presumption that it is an OOC tech rez, this simplifies the process for DMs. I believe certain NPCs will even cast it (scripted, no DM required) for the recommended cost (spell + material component). Not 100% sure the NPC-casting got fully debugged, we haven't had many PCs with 5000 gp to burn yet.

I certainly wouldn't say being raised from the dead several times through the course of a campaign is "normal" for a PnP campaign, I'd say that's pretty DM-dependent (and perhaps more common in high to epic level campaigns); I don't think I've ever had a PnP game where a rez spell occurred. Generally if a player died in a PnP campaign, they ended up rerolling someone new and getting the levels/gear hookup to join back again (not suitable for a PW-style game, but that's how we handled it in PnP).

I would agree that Permadeath (again, this means NO RESPAWN only) likely discourages some potential members, but I believe it's essential to support the "fully in-character" mode we try to operate in on-server. Having the likely-permanent death of the PC as a potential consequence for any given risky action encourages the player to think from the PC's viewpoint. We who have been playing permadeath PWs for a long time tend to take this for granted, but it is a huge shift in perspective from the general experience of CRPGs in general. Often it takes a "permanent death" or two before a member new to Permadeath PW play really begins to adapt to a mode of "playing to live their PC's life", rather than "playing to Win the Game" (in terms of XP/loot/advancement). I know it took that for me, even with a PnP background, due to the habits deeply ingrained by years of CRPG play. Of course, there will always be some who will try the same rush for levels/gear and treat Permadeath as just another challenge factor for their twitch skills, but I certainly wouldn't class those as a large portion of the playerbase.

Echoing the sentiments above, I would encourage those friends to try ALFA or other permadeath servers; they aren't the lighthearted battle romp one can expect from MMOs or other CRPGs, but they have their own unique appeal that little else can compete with.

(Also, this isn't really a technical scripting discussion, so NWN2 Brainstorming or General Discussion might be a better place to hold it).

[Mulu]

And it was also my impression that it was one of those spells that was only cast on those who were "of Faith".

This was my impression as well, and although it may be "realistic," it does mean that if you choose to worship a god other than the same one the local NPC high priest worships, raise dead will not be available to you, at any price.

I tend to like to play PC's that worship obscure gods, but that rp choice means being raised will never be an option here. I remember back when I was playing ALFA NWN1 my PC had a blessed diamond in her pack. At one point OOC with a couple DM's and some players I made the comment that "Vala would never get raised due to her diety choice, even with a blessed diamond in her pack." The response was, "that's correct."

So, again, the policy limits player choice. The smart move is to play a cleric of the faith dominant on your server, due to powerful OOC incentives. (Cleric ftw...)

It also helps to be well tied in to local factions and the DM's. There are many OOC considerations and player choice issues on whether or not a PC gets raised. The end result is, "one life only" for the majority of PC's, no raise dead available.

Oh, and I agree with I think all of what Kest wrote.

PW's are a weird environment for D&D. They worked a lot better back in the early days of NWN1 simply due to a high player density which made the game fun enough that you could ignore the problems. As general interest in the game wanes, the problems become more apparent. We're all technically retro gamers, and a dying breed of retro gamers at that. Enjoy it while you can.

[Mulu]

good post mulu. One comment with regards to you nwn vs nwn2 comparioson, while I have certainly heard of fewer raises, likewise I have heard of a lot fewer deaths.

It seems likely that as a function of time, those who lack the twitch skills to survive the environment either leave or become townies.