Not Exactly DMs

[kid]

I would, obviously, respond that DMs who demand levels of control that they feel disrupted by PCs who acquire power or influence are railroad DMs who ruin fun and are more trouble than they're worth.

Removing elements of stratified social or political influence is the removal of consequence for social or political action. These consequences (good at bad) are one of the core things that makes ALFA an immersive role playing environment; taking it out leaves us with swordsmen who sometimes cry about their dead parents to try to pretend not to be shallow mechanics.

Hey, it's nothing personal.

You feel you've earned that measure of power.
I feel an easy access to a level 20 in every single adventure is not the best game one could put out there.

I'm not saying level 20s should not exist, but if you're trying to tell me that the players have the same acess to dukes, as they do to Persy, then you have to be kidding.

Those powers that be remain in the DMs hands for good reason.
I know you do your best with the situation at hand, but if it was my choice, I would have preferred otherwise.

To each his own, I'm not advocating for forced retirement or something.

And I also certainly don't think that allowing "DM where you play" under the guise of 'well I built a city'! or... 'I command the knights!' is a good idea.

More so, as it is now, I dread even touching the Ruqel NPCs. I have an entire city on the server that I can't touch.
I don't think that's a good way to operate.

Again, not telling you off or anything, I know you do your best.
That's just the way it is.

[kid]

Oh, and one last thing, having Persy run around as a never ending deus ex machina is quiet the opposite of immersive role play. It's like having a DnD group where Elminster is your best buddy. I would never want to DM such a group, doubt you would. I mean, what's the fun in that?

Now, I never said remove Ruqel or remove the character. I just said that for it to be immersive and fun, and have the all powerful level 20 ruler of state keep the appropriate distance from the rest of the riff raff, it would have been better if you were DMing her and Ruqel and not actively playing (Then seeing Persy would be like seeing Alustriel (to a lesser extant). -That- would be immersive.

Anyways, I'm not trying to harshen your mellow, and I'm not saying anything about your role play abilities, etc. I would think that about anyone in your characters position.

Turning it into insults, well, that's just insulting.
I think it's a legitimate view point, and all your answer did was just lash out, completely ignoring the actual point.
(That I really didn't think I'd need to explain, but here, I did).

Either way, doesn't matter, right? Things I say never happen, so I'm sure you'll get to puppet all of Ruqel in no time

[Zelknolf]

The point was that perspective informs who is "no fun." People who like more-mechanical challenges get annoyed if someone in their group grabs their highbie friend and steamrolls everything. People who prefer narrative arcs tend to not mind much. People who prefer an internally-consistent world are annoyed when it doesn't happen. I've never minded DMing mixed-level groups, myself, and the one group that I level restricted was done because the player group's leader asked for it (and then I dropped it, because he started trolling the campaign and I actually don't care what level you are; if you solve a problem, OK; here's the next one and yay for reusable build).

The fact that we get insult-laden throwbacks reminds us that if you start any statement with "no offense" or "nothing personal," you're out of line and know you're out of line-- so maybe don't say it.

[oldgrayrogue]

All I'm really saying is we should try letting folks be "sort of" DMs to spice things up a bit when DMs are not around. They should have very limited "powers" with very limited ability to grant XP. GP and loot in one off ad hoc or pure "spice" events of no consequence other than to add some life to the server.

My comment about PCs like Perse or Alyra or other high levels was just an aside. However, I don't see how letting Zelk possess a few NPCs in Ruqel to make things more immersive would cause any harm to anyone. Same for SSM with the Knights. I do, however, take issue with PCs attaining the status of commanders of entire armies or groups of cohorts. Unless of course DMs are free to challenge them with appropriate antagonists of similar scale.

[kid]

Well, I start it with no offence because I know you are SUPER touchy and very protective of your girl.
Which is fine, again, it is just the way it is.
It is not becuse I think what I'm saying has no merit or that I think it's offensive to not want level 20 heads of state influencing my game.

Also, I disagree.
It has nothing to do with mechanical challenges, it actually influences the narrative arch.
I think Lord of the Rings would be a bad story if it went...
"OH, a ring? Let me just teleport... *PLOP* All done!"
I could give countless more examples.

I think you miss a chance for RP when you have a level 20 at your disposal.

I think if as a DM I would RP any other head of state the way your RP persy it would be in bad taste.
Now, i'm not saying it's your fault, because... what you gonna do? Not RP with people? Not play? No way you could avoid that... And no wants to force you to do that.
So again, this is why, to me, it would have been perfect if she and the whole place would have been DM'd by you.
Cause currently it's just an entire city (and a good one with a good story attached) on the server I can really weave into any story.

So i'm really sorry if that's somehow offensive to you, but I can't see how it would be.

[Xanthea]

There's a reason the mentor figure's role in a story is to die or step aside.

Edit - Honestly Pers is a pretty good example of why ALFA's strict insistence on limited numbers of PCs and only one per server can hurt RP. If Zelk playing a 2nd PC on BG wasn't an issue then there wouldn't be any pressure to bring out the head of state to make small chat with riff-raff and beat up goblins in Cloakwood.

She could be reserved for situations that a head of state should be reserved for without forcing Zelk to not play while waiting for those rare situations.

[Duck One]

I would, obviously, respond that DMs who demand levels of control that they feel disrupted by PCs who acquire power or influence are railroad DMs who ruin fun and are more trouble than they're worth.

Removing elements of stratified social or political influence is the removal of consequence for social or political action. These consequences (good at bad) are one of the core things that makes ALFA an immersive role playing environment; taking it out leaves us with swordsmen who sometimes cry about their dead parents to try to pretend not to be shallow mechanics.

If ALFA has an image problem in the larger gaming community, it is one of elitist role playing snobs who could do without the adventure elements of the game; where the largest fraction of XP is awarded for sitting around a tavern emoting inner monologue character development. While I don't entirely agree with that assessment, a statement like Zelknof's does little to dispel the notion.

[Xanthea]

The irony is that dungeon crawling tends to provide better character development than tavern sitting.

Putting a group of people under intense pressure and forcing them to work together to deal with it is much more likely to force new perspectives and personal development than hours of small chat about the weather. Periods of stress is when you find out who a person really is.

[kid]

Good memories Xan
That was an awesome dungeon.

[Xanthea]

Thanks, Kid. I was very pleased with it too.

[Zelknolf]

If ALFA has an image problem in the larger gaming community, it is one of elitist role playing snobs who could do without the adventure elements of the game; where the largest fraction of XP is awarded for sitting around a tavern emoting inner monologue character development. While I don't entirely agree with that assessment, a statement like Zelknof's does little to dispel the notion.

This is a pretty big leap, considering that the topic at hand is that some of our PCs lead armies, build nations, and get "too good" at solving the problems of adventure.

[Rumple C]

The one group that I level restricted was done because the player group's leader asked for it (and then I dropped it, because he started trolling the campaign and I actually don't care what level you are; if you solve a problem, OK; here's the next one and yay for reusable build).

I think our interpretations differ. (But each to their own, and I thank you for the dm'ing)

[shad0wfax]

It has been my experience that Zelknolf does her best not to get Teresa involved in lower level plots and that either the DMs of the past made brutal meat grinders that were so difficult to slog through that the PCs naturally geeky overwhelmed and went for backup or the plot became so ridiculously epic and ultra evil that when Teresa heard about it she had no choice but to get involved due to assignment and threat to the entire sword coast, if not the world.

Here are just some of the many examples:

• Kel'nayek by Ronan was an ancient blue dragon that was terrorizing the coast and even did a fly by on Ruqel.
• Zoran the ridiculous spell casting vampire by Ronan, who has some universal portal key and intended to open the gates to the abyss or some shit and end the world.
• Multitudes of Talona, Shar, and Malar plots near Ruqel. Any Shar plot is going to require Teresa to get involved; to not do so would result in a temporary loss of spellcasting, most likely.
• Thalantyr the Conjurer being corrupted by a railroad artifact, making him go evil mode and he's already a 16+ wizard.
• A friggin banshee in Mick's plot.
• Don't even get me started on HEEGZ spawning friggin Bebeliths on the trade way and Balors in the gnoll camp.
• Vila directly requested Teresa's intervention with Toby Menzer's curse removal.

And yet in all of these cases, the DMs pitch a fit when she gets involved and wine about deus ex machina. You're all completely misusing that phrase, by the way; it's actually a literary device for a lazy author (or DM) to drive the plot without explaining the reasoning for the events taking place. It's the equivalent of a mother telling her child, "because I said so." For fuck's sake, what do you expect to happen when you throw world ending CR16+ shit at level 9-12 parties? Are they supposed to go get TPKd just so that a DM doesn't have to do a tiny bit of work to accommodate Teresa's inevitable involvement in an epic plot?

For what it's worth, I've DMd a level 4 rogue, level 8 Monk and Level 20 Teresa in a dungeon crawl. The Monk and rogue both had near death experiences and I ran Teresa almost completely out of higher level spells. All three players found it to be challenging and rewarding. Sure, Teresa could have soloed it all, but two other PCs would be dead. All it takes is careful encounter planning. I've never had a combat balance problem with Teresa in a group.

In case you can't tell, I'm sick and tired of DMs using higher level characters as excuses and whipping boys (and girls) for the DM's failure to balance CRs and ECLs properly.

I'm speaking as HDM here, to the BG DMs who bitch and whine about Teresa's level in tells, in IRC, in biography threads, in the forums, and in threads like this.

Italic text was added or edited to correct grammatical errors and for general formatting. I make absolutely zero apology about the contents of my post or the fact that it is negative. (See below moderator comment.

[Dorn]

[moderator hat on ]

Ok guys. Sweeten up please (including you boss). Nice stuff from now on please and a few extra breaths before pressing 'submit' recognising that people will take written words differently than you intend them.

If you feel that you need to get your response in regarding the current unhelpful and highly situational tangent, I ask you to be the bigger person and let it slide or take it to PMs (noting that we the angelic mods expect/demand you also behave appropriately in PMs).

The original post asks the question if a new level of 'limited' DM should be enabled (including a n exception from DM where you play) to improve the DM coverage.

[Ithildur]

((sorry for one more off topic post, but, nicely handled Dorn. ))