Hardcore or Softcore - you guys need to pick

[trentfrompunchy83]

If someone wants to play a Drow why won’t you let them?

Drow (and duergar, grey orcs, etc.) are something of a special case as they are KOS most places. This means they're either bored in the Underdark alone, or create more work for the DM team on the surface. Of course the same is not true of many exceptional PCs.

So if 4 people want to get together and play one of the KoS races you disallow them because: 1. You determin that they will get bored with the situation and either reroll something else or leave ALFA, or, 2. It will create work for a DM even if they have not requested DM time?

It really comes down to the fact that ALFA is making decisions for people, by way of limiting choice, instead of letting those people decide and create things for themselves. I personally would rather bring 3 people to ALFA and let them play alone somewhere with the possibility they get bored and leave, try something else or recruit their own DM, than to limit them from the start, there by making ALFA unappealing to the point they dont want to join.

Players like choice. If you need proof look at the number of race/class/PrC choice in REAL D&D. Continuing to state otherwise, by acting as a limiter or placing bizzar restrictions on things such as PrC's, is to invite the continual appeal of ALFA to very select individuals in the group of good role players.

[Ronan]

So if 4 people want to get together and play one of the KoS races you disallow them because: 1. You determin that they will get bored with the situation and either reroll something else or leave ALFA, or, 2. It will create work for a DM even if they have not requested DM time?

If they aren't going to be surface-drow (and thus create more work) then I don't care. Drow in the UD aren't really all that exceptional after all. Surface drow always end up being a drain on DM resources, to varying degrees. One way around this is a really high disguise skill.

Creating non-KOS environments for UD races is also a lot of work. So far no one has gotten a good UD player hub going on a live server. If people want to be bored in our sparse UD areas, well then sure whatever, but I don't think we've ever had anyone put up with that.

[Xanthea]

I don't really understand restricting PrCs because it's not like they have some awesome cool RP value that is diminished by being spread around.

If like 50% of the server is some ECL race or other, though, they it's probably going to look pretty silly.

[Ithildur]

... and the same dozen or so people pretty much said the same things we've said before in other similarly general/broad threads, with a couple of exceptions... Long live the dance.

(although Kid seems to be even more eloquent than usual this time)

[Castano]

So if 4 people want to get together and play one of the KoS races you disallow them because: 1. You determin that they will get bored with the situation and either reroll something else or leave ALFA, or, 2. It will create work for a DM even if they have not requested DM time?

If they aren't going to be surface-drow (and thus create more work) then I don't care. Drow in the UD aren't really all that exceptional after all. Surface drow always end up being a drain on DM resources, to varying degrees. One way around this is a really high disguise skill.

Creating non-KOS environments for UD races is also a lot of work. So far no one has gotten a good UD player hub going on a live server. If people want to be bored in our sparse UD areas, well then sure whatever, but I don't think we've ever had anyone put up with that.

No UD group has ever stayed down there. They invariably get bored and migrate to the surface or retire (the last MS UD crew lasted like 1 month). Build us a UD server and you will enjoy it. Play UD races on the existing servers and you are largely stuck in our underdark spots and Skaug Isle. If you like that you are welcome to roll PCs and live down there. I'll approve the exceptionals for people that don't already have one if they like and they can hang in drow outpost on MS or in skaug.

[Castano]

Orange you can't see the apps forum, but I consistently push back on denials of new people for exceptionals. If they have never had one they are pretty much assured I will go to bat for them if they want one. What I tend to deny is repeated exceptionals/2 exceptionals on one player.

[Veilan]

Many, if not most, exceptional PCs, and even moreso "monster" races, are simply an exhausting, surefire way to force DM and environment attention and special interaction, even if the players may not be motivated by this or try their genuine best to limit it.

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Does anyone seriously believe we will have a better game if we force these things down the DMs' throats, rather than let it be guided by the server teams' capacities and willingness?

Reality check, anyone?

[orangetree]

Many, if not most, exceptional PCs, and even moreso "monster" races, are simply an exhausting, surefire way to force DM and environment attention and special interaction, even if the players may not be motivated by this or try their genuine best to limit it.

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Does anyone seriously believe we will have a better game if we force these things down the DMs' throats, rather than let it be guided by the server teams' capacities and willingness?

Reality check, anyone?

This I disagree with. You could put the same argument to any non human race or even a human that is not a fighter. They serve as plot hooks. One could say they are a bigger hook but that is not a bad thing. There is no obligation to do anything with them as a DM but the player is obligated to make the best use of such opportunities.

[FoamBats4All]

Many, if not most, exceptional PCs, and even moreso "monster" races, are simply an exhausting, surefire way to force DM and environment attention and special interaction, even if the players may not be motivated by this or try their genuine best to limit it.

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Does anyone seriously believe we will have a better game if we force these things down the DMs' throats, rather than let it be guided by the server teams' capacities and willingness?

Reality check, anyone?

This I disagree with. You could put the same argument to any non human race or even a human that is not a fighter. They serve as plot hooks. One could say they are a bigger hook but that is not a bad thing. There is no obligation to do anything with them as a DM but the player is obligated to make the best use of such opportunities.

You don't think surface drow create more conflict/drama, and thus require more interventions/assistance from the DM team, particularly with ALFA's CvC rules? Our surface drow PC requires a DM just to take any action regarding her race, such as noticing it.

[Sidhe]

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Wow. I have to say something in regards to this.

I DM because I enjoy it. It is where my game is at. I feel no way obligated to GM any character regardless of their personal choices of the character they play. If I choose to engage with an out of the box character it only enhances my enjoyment and enthusiasim, such is choice. That is pretty fundamental for every DM I have ever met.

My advice is that if any DM is feeling that their enjoyment time is becoming work, it is time for them to put the dice down, step out from behind the screen, pick up a sword and start bashing monsters for a change.

Cheers

[Veilan]

I DM because I enjoy it.

Sure. And since not every DM might enjoy the same thing, it's a good idea to let the DM corps determine what it is they, as a compromise, can all enjoy, rather than, directly or indirectly, forcing them to put time and ressources where they don't find enjoyment. It's great to have DMs like you that enjoy supporting exceptional characters - and thus, I'm sure your HDM is more likely to approve them, knowing it will be fun for you and the player, rather than a burden. The choice is yours, and that's the good thing - keeping the choice, and authority, with the DM team.

But, it's not easy or even possible to ignore characters you do not enjoy DMing, especially if you wish to portray some semblance of a "realistic", living, breathing world. There is a lot of all kinds of pressure working on you, from social factors to personal standards to practicality.

Not to be put into this situation rather than having to figure it out in game while being subjected to antagonism for not performing the umpteenth raise by Asmodeus' intervention for Emothar (cousin of Elothar), fey'ri-vampire-werewolf, first child of Aulmpiter, warlock/bladesinger/hellfire warlock is, I believe, common courtesy.

Let the DMs decide how many of those they want to support. Again, it beggars belief that there seems to be a notion that players think in ALFA they can decide what kind of characters the DM corps should support. We must necessarily create a framework that does not burden people with unwanted demands, which is bound to annoy people with outlying preferences, but the alternative is what... telling DMs what characters they ought to spend their time DMing and portraying environment reactions to? I suppose we already tell them how to equip our characters, what challenge we deem acceptable before we file a complaint for griefing, and what rewards we expect so as not to complain about using consumables while adventuring... so maybe this is a logical next step.

Sure, we are more limited in choice than a single DM with four players can be in a vacuum rather than a PW framework, but still, we do support exceptional characters - within reason, and where the DM team think they can work with them. What about that situation is undesirable? Because not everyone gets to play the most special, unique snowflake of them all all the time?

[kid]

((EDIT: I see Veilan already got that... but im not deleting all of this crap!))

That's obvious. I will say you might lack some point of reference to modern day ALFA (:
Though maybe not.

Could you as a DM easily ignore a group of four drow running around BG doing statics?
Wouldn't it change the world you're playing in if the characters in your game would go:
"Oh? A drow and a Yuan-ti? Yeah, had a drink with a pair of them at the blade and stars the other day, and let me tell you that drow was Fuhuhhhhney!"

So if you allow stuff which are supposedly rare in game you will be forced to monitor them, or players would do stupid stuff that will require a DM response. Such as either running around in populated areas with monster races, or instantly CvC said monster races without IC knowing who and what they are. (Things that players have done on a few occasions - even good players).

So exceptional races are more of a hassle on the DM core, unless the DMs are jaded and don't give a fuck.
I would concede to some of Xan's point in regards to PrCs though. A lot less annoying as having black, gray, blue, purple people running around all over the server. That has more of an immediate impact. The strange and unique becoming normal and ordinary.

[Ithildur]

Many, if not most, exceptional PCs, and even moreso "monster" races, are simply an exhausting, surefire way to force DM and environment attention and special interaction, even if the players may not be motivated by this or try their genuine best to limit it.

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Does anyone seriously believe we will have a better game if we force these things down the DMs' throats, rather than let it be guided by the server teams' capacities and willingness?

Reality check, anyone?

This I disagree with. You could put the same argument to any non human race or even a human that is not a fighter. They serve as plot hooks. One could say they are a bigger hook but that is not a bad thing. There is no obligation to do anything with them as a DM but the player is obligated to make the best use of such opportunities.

Wow.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... 32&t=50374

Similarly, 'One does not simply walk into the surface world as a Drow/Orc/Orog/Yuanti etc'. Seriously, Drow PCs on the surface ought to feel a bit like Hobbits in Mordor (or maybe Nazgul in the Shire); that's always been understood as part of hardcore RP here with some exceptions when HDMs were very clearly willing to go out of their way to support the exceptions. It is not the norm/default and certainly not comparable to, good grief, 'any non human race or even a human that is not a fighter'.

[orangetree]

Many, if not most, exceptional PCs, and even moreso "monster" races, are simply an exhausting, surefire way to force DM and environment attention and special interaction, even if the players may not be motivated by this or try their genuine best to limit it.

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Does anyone seriously believe we will have a better game if we force these things down the DMs' throats, rather than let it be guided by the server teams' capacities and willingness?

Reality check, anyone?

This I disagree with. You could put the same argument to any non human race or even a human that is not a fighter. They serve as plot hooks. One could say they are a bigger hook but that is not a bad thing. There is no obligation to do anything with them as a DM but the player is obligated to make the best use of such opportunities.

Wow.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... 32&t=50374

Similarly, 'One does not simply walk into the surface world as a Drow/Orc/Orog/Yuanti etc'.

I do agree with you on that.

[Castano]

Part of ALFA's rationale for existence is that all the added classes and races (which seem to pop up whenever WOTC needs cash) is too much. There's too much complexity to DM as it is. DMs need to be proficient at what all of these classes and races do, how they interact with the game world, etc.

Reading above, I have to agree with Veilan and kid and Ith. There is always going to be some PW aspect to our world because the servers are online w/o DMs. Thus, exceptionals that should not do X (wander town for example) have the ability to do X unless their player understands not to do X. This is why exceptional approval has an RP requirement that the player understand the race.

Because exceptionals in out of the ordinary settings (our servers BG/TSM/MS/WHL) would be exceedingly rare, we roughly limit the number that exist in ALFA at any one time to prevent them from taking over the look of the game world.

Otherwise we could all roll water genasi and pretend we all decided to move from some underwater setting to downtown TSM because we like the climate.

I've never denied UD races that intend to only live in the underdark areas for example, as we know these (1) won't impact population appearance, (2) won't cause RP issues on the surface Re: KOS/rarity simply because in the UD they are not rare.

PrCs call out for DMing, even if the DM'd quest requirement was recently lifted - keep in mind that the player must quest towards the PrC on their own, and they will undoubtedly ask for DM assistance in such. We dumped the DM quest requirement to stop DMs from approving PrCs (after much begging from player) and then not having the time to do the quest. It was not an easy decision - I did it because what we had before was broken. PrCs are supposed to be rare culminations of special skill and expertise. There should not be that many.