Oz, Land of the Free and Home of the...

[Stormseeker]

Mini-14 with a 30 rnd clip is how i kept the coyotes from killing our livestock, and by adding a deer to our diet when things was really "tough" money wise. When a dozen coyotes are trying to bring down your livestock you need all the firepower you can get. And yes once again we do need all 300million+ guns. To feed or defend our families.
In a perfect world we could do away with weapons of any kind to make ourselves feel safer. But the nothing is perfect because of our flaws, so until that time we become perfect then i will need weapons to protect me and mine from the individual to the government.

[Swift]

In a perfect world we could do away with weapons of any kind to make ourselves feel safer. But the nothing is perfect because of our flaws, so until that time we become perfect then i will need weapons to protect me and mine from the individual to the government.

Pretty much every other western nation somehow seems to avoid collapsing into anarchy without such incredible levels of gun ownership, it is a wonder the so called 'greatest country on earth' cannot do the same.

Additionally, really, how would your country be any less safe or free with only 150 million guns, rather than 300 million?

[SwordSaintMusashi]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

By making them harder to obtain?

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

They won't be harder to obtain; if someone wants an illegal weapon, the will just go to the black market of their country. Pretending that legality is something crimnals care about is foolish at best. If gunman want a gun, outlawing that gun won't do a damn thing.

Having to go to "the black market" is a lot tougher than over the counter (or more likely over the table at a gun show). Imagine a situation where i (Joe America) am having a bad day. I decide i wish to pop holes in my boss and all my co-workers. Scenario A I can head down to the convention center and get myself a shiny new gun during my lunch break and 5000 rounds. Scenario B I have to drive through the "bad part of town" asking shady look people if they know where i can score a "piece".

Hopefuly under scenario B the disgruntled office worker decides to do what his mother would have advised - go home and have a sleep, you'll feel better in the morning.

Regardless, I am done with the discussion. I can see I am up against a certain culture. I expect it will be business as usual. I'll just sigh a little inside as the next massacre happens, and the next, and the next.

I just want it said, not all of us are gung-ho for guns.

[Stormseeker]

lol swift my grandfathers kept these western nations safe with guns in ww2. Their is no way you can convince those like me that being gun free will keep us safer. A police officer just went over the edge and killed himself and his family, a preacher did too, thats two people you would figure would be the safest to be around.

[Ronan]

I think you guys are missing some context:

• Firstly, Americans have been killing each other in larger quantities than the rest of the world for a while, before other nations adopted stricter gun-control policies. "American exceptionalism" cuts both ways.
• Violent crime has been rapidly declining in the US since 1994.
• America has draconian anti-drug laws and by far the largest portion of its population incarcerated of any developed nation. Just like alcohol prohibition, the "war on drugs" accompanied a sharp increase in violent crime. Unless I am mistaken, I do not believe other developed countries have anything like our drug war.
• Around 75% of murders are gang-related.

In short we don't have a gun problem as much as a drug-gang problem. I'm sorry but it just isn't clear that gun control is the, or even a, solution to the problem, and anyone who says they know for sure is probably lying. Maybe if you could reduce our number of guns to UK-levels, but no one thinks that is even possible. On the other hand, there's an enormous amount of research linking drug enforcement to violence. Here is a metastudy for anyone interested.

Having to go to "the black market" is a lot tougher than over the counter (or more likely over the table at a gun show). Imagine a situation where i (Joe America) am having a bad day. I decide i wish to pop holes in my boss and all my co-workers. Scenario A I can head down to the convention center and get myself a shiny new gun during my lunch break and 5000 rounds. Scenario B I have to drive through the "bad part of town" asking shady look people if they know where i can score a "piece".

I believe every state has a "waiting period" of around week to purchase a new firearm. Meaning you can buy the gun, but don't receive it until later. The idea is this gives people time to cool off. I've no idea if this is effective or not, and I've never bought a gun.

Swift, BAC limits vary by state. Under the age of 21 the limit tends to be 0.02%.

[Stormseeker]

No waiting period here if you pass the background check with flying colors. And true enough, our bloodiest fight ever was with each other. And someday the odds of history says it will happen again, i just hope not at least for another 100years or so.

[I-KP]

I just want it said, not all of us are gung-ho for guns.

QFT

I talk to quite a number of Americans within the various game clans that I'm part of and IME US citizens are polarized on the subject, pretty much 50:50 leaving not much daylight between the two camps for ambivalence. The USA as a nation has a deeply unhealthy relationship with firearms but not all Americans do; an important distinction to make I feel.

[Swift]

Storm, I had grand and great grandparents participate in the 2 world wars as well. Australia's national identity was forged on the battlefields of Europe. They fought and died the same as America. Don't try and use "they fought for our freedom" in this. It's disrespectful and offensive.

[Heero]

I believe every state has a "waiting period" of around week to purchase a new firearm. Meaning you can buy the gun, but don't receive it until later. The idea is this gives people time to cool off. I've no idea if this is effective or not, and I've never bought a gun.

Most state waiting periods (cant speak to all states) do not apply to long guns, ie shotguns and hunting rifles; rather, they apply to hand guns and 'assault rifles'. Generally, shotguns and hunting rifles require only a background check, done right on the spot by the firearm dealer, which returns either a 'Pass' or 'Fail' to the dealer.

Ive tried to steer clear of this debate, but I am going to add my 2 cents here, like it or not.

Many of Ronan's points throughout this topic are well made.

There are 300+ million firearms in the US. On average, there are roughly 30,000 firearm related deaths per year. Of this 30,000, roughly 2/3 are suicides. Do the math here; 0.000033% of firearms are used to kill another person each year, most of these firearms illegally obtained and in the hands of criminals being used in gang and drug-related violence (75% if Ronan's data is to be believed). The number of these deaths related to tragedies similar to the Sandy Hook incident, horrible as it was, are a drop in the proverbial bucket of firearm deaths which is itself a drop in the proverbial bucket when talking about the number of firearms actually used for violence.

The American love of firearms and 'gun culture' really is not difficult to understand. All of our respective nations (Im assuming we are all Westerners) have had our share of world conflict, as Swift says, and all have probably undergone some sort of struggle in some fashion to reach the point they are at now; however, the US is unique in that its very existence comes through conflict. Unlike the other former colonies - Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. - that were eventually given (or earned, however you wish to put it) independence from a sovereign nation or the European nations themselves whose general citizenry gradualy 'earned' more rights and 'freedom' from the ruling class, the US took its independence through armed conflict. The private ownership of firearms was and, to many people, still is an important part of our history and founding, so important that the right to such was written into our Constitution.

"You dont need those guns", is not a reason to take away a person's right to buy those firearms. This argument of need is no more valid than, for instance, a vegetarian telling you or I, "You dont need to eat meat to survive." The statement may be true in both cases, but that doesnt make the argument right. There are A LOT of things no one needs, some of them potentially harmful - alcohol, tobacco, automobiles (for many people) - and many of them no more harmful than being a big waste of time - video games, for instance.

In the same vein, a firearm's purpose is not to kill another human being. A firearms purpose is to send a projectile downrange at a target. The target could be just that, a target; it could be an animal; or it could be a person. Its been said time and again: guns dont kill people; people kill people. Its said over and again because it is 100% true. Neither I nor 10's of millions of other law-abiding American's are more likely to kill another human being because we own a pistol or an 'assault rifle'. This line of reasoning is just plain silly, and it reaks of fear.

I do not expect any of you foreigners to understand this relationship many of us Americans have with our firearms, but calling it 'unhealthy' is just plain ignorant. Unlike the rest of the western world, the US is not country with a largely homogenous citizenry. Some are (far) more homogenous than others, but for the most part you all come from countries where the general population shares an ethnicity, religion, and general set of morals/beliefs. Despite what you may think, you probably have far more trust in your politicians and laws than the average American, and your opposing political parties are oftentimes much closer aligned than what basically amounts to polar opposites on the wacko spectrum in the US. Couple this with the fact that your nation (probably, are there currently any?) wasnt founded through open revolt and bloodshed to cast off an (percieved or otherwise, argue as you will) oppressor of a sovereign nation.

The slippery slope is 'gun control' laws. Making the requirements to own a firearm somewhat more stringent is not a bad thing. Things such as better record sharing between states for background checks, mental health evals (or at least the ability to flag a background check as requiring one), and other such things are not necessarily bad things, and I think a lot of 'gun nuts' would even agree; however, the resistance comes from the belief that giving an inch to the opposite side of the political spectrum will result in losing a mile. This isnt necessarily true, but it is pretty obvious that this time, in this particular case, it is absolutely true. These knee-jerk reactions to incidents relating to some firearms, horrible as they may be, seem driven entirely by fear by people afraid of things they dont understand. "Take away the guns so it doesnt happen," not only ignores the fact that doing so is unlikely to put a stop to the tragedies, but it also ignores and punishes literally 10s of million of law-abiding citizens by disallowing them to purchase a firearm that has less than half of a half of a half of a percent of killing another person.

The US has some real moral and cultural issues. This much is clear. There is a general lack of respect for one another shared by MUCH of its citizenry. Its seen every day in politics (easily); its seen on the web (again, easily); and its seen in general everyday activities. I can not speak to how those of you in other Western countries treat one another, but I suspect (based upon my own observations during a lot of time abroad) it is generally better, mainly on account of your populations being as homogenous as they are. There are still pockets of civility and mutual respect found throughout the country, many, if not most, in rather rural areas (which, funnily enough, tend to be more likely to consist of law-abiding people owning multiple firearms).

And on another (not too far off) topic, I genuinely think many of these random tragedies could be avoided if not for the media. I do not believe they can ever be entirely avoided, but I believe the media plays a huge part in perpetuating them. In a lot of other places, these sort of people are not even mentioned by name on the news (I believe this is the case in Canada); whereas, in the US the people commiting these atrocities are eleveated to near immortal status as their life histories, relationships, childhoods, possible motives, etc, etc, and, most importantly, their names are retold over and over and oever once more for the entire world to watch.

Anyway.

[Stormseeker]

Well let me try it another way Mr. Swift. Our Grandfathers and their generation had to take up arms to stop one of the western nations from completely destroying the rest of their neighbors...just think if the 1938 Germans Weapons Act hadn't stripped away essentially any rights to the jewish population to own guns maybe..just maybe 6 MILLION + Jews wouldnt have died.

Look i know that i ramble and i can jump all over the place in my arguments, but i and others like me believe deep down in our very core that as long as we hold hard to our guns then things like this will not happen here. Guns are the only thing that is proven to keep a people free.

[Witchdoctor]

Can not stress how totally in agreement I am with Heero on each and every point.

[Ronan]

Edit: Note my above opinion is likely biased. There are many studies showing a positive correlation between firearm ownership and homicide, and many showing no correlation. I took this to mean the data was inconclusive and/or too captured by politics to yield any real information. However there are fewer studies showing a negative correlation between guns and homicide, which we might expect if the datas were being pulled in both directions by politics. So you might say its more likely gun ownership is correlated with homicide in the US, though my stance is still "I don't know".

Here's a good site on all this stuff (it seems relatively unbiased, at least):
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

The American love of firearms and 'gun culture' really is not difficult to understand.

There might be more to this: how many other developed countries had strong gun-cultures before their strict firearm legislation was passed? Hunting in countries like the UK is often portrayed in the media as a rich man's or aristocrat's sport, as presumably only those people had enough land to hunt on. Rich people aren't a very good source of votes, because there aren't very many of them. In the US, gun-hobbies are enjoyed by everyone on the socio-economic ladder. Thus there are a lot of voting gun-owners, and a lot for a politician to lose if they support strict gun control. Then of course the US has much lower population density than most European countries, making it that much easier to use firearms.

I can not speak to how those of you in other Western countries treat one another, but I suspect (based upon my own observations during a lot of time abroad) it is generally better, mainly on account of your populations being as homogenous as they are. There are still pockets of civility and mutual respect found throughout the country, many, if not most, in rather rural areas (which, funnily enough, tend to be more likely to consist of law-abiding people owning multiple firearms).

I thought the stereotype was that Americans are overly polite?

And on another (not too far off) topic, I genuinely think many of these random tragedies could be avoided if not for the media. I do not believe they can ever be entirely avoided, but I believe the media plays a huge part in perpetuating them. In a lot of other places, these sort of people are not even mentioned by name on the news (I believe this is the case in Canada); whereas, in the US the people commiting these atrocities are eleveated to near immortal status as their life histories, relationships, childhoods, possible motives, etc, etc, and, most importantly, their names are retold over and over and oever once more for the entire world to watch.

It would be nice if the media got together and agreed to never mention any details of these mass-killers. The First Amendment prevents the government from doing anything to the same effect.

[Adanu]

Heero has far more patience with people like Swift than I do apparently :p. He basically said everything I would have said if I had bothered to make an argument here beyond a few sentences.

[Swift]

Heero has far more patience with people like Swift than I do apparently :p. He basically said everything I would have said if I had bothered to make an argument here beyond a few sentences.

And hence why having an intelligent discussion with you is impossible.

[Adanu]

Heero has far more patience with people like Swift than I do apparently :p. He basically said everything I would have said if I had bothered to make an argument here beyond a few sentences.

And hence why having an intelligent discussion with you is impossible.

More along the lines of 'I can have intelligent discussion if the people I talk with actually listen'.

So, the question is; Did you actually understand and agree with Heero, or is the US still batshit insane?