Oz, Land of the Free and Home of the...

[jmecha]

I suggest that you focus your energy upon the fight worth fighting

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... 7&start=45

[Adanu]

Given that the 2nd amendment is trumpeted as right to bear arms and maintain your freedom...

Consider this.

The gun lobby funds politicians who in turn back the 2nd. This in turn allows them to keep selling weapons with the potential to massacre at a moments notice. There is a difference in weapons that can be used for "defense" and one that offensive (in so many ways) by their very nature. The public does not need these weapons. Please, stick with your handguns and rifles. Leave the automatic weapons to your military. Because ultimately it is the children and innocents who pay the price so the gun manufacturers manipulate public perception to keep the profits flowing. Every bit as evil and disgusting as the public manipulations of the tabac lobby.

Earlier this year (2012), the Atlantic reports, the NSSF (National Sport Shooting Federation) fought hard to stop the town's (Newtown) authorities from bringing in more stringent restrictions on gun ownership and shooting, arguing that swimming was far more dangerous. Since Friday, it has been silent.

Fuck you evil gun lobby people, fuck you. (and yes, I am also giving you the finger tabac manufacturers)

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

[Ronan]

Very few killings are done with automatic weapons. About 70% are done with handguns, and most are gang (and thus drug) related. Yay the War on Drugs

There are nearly as many guns as people in the US. IMO gun control is largely a lost cause regardless of what effects it will have. Normally I'd be all for the use of guns to defend ourselves against the government, but the sad fact is that even if you're complete innocent and harm a cop in 100% self-defense, you're screwed. No I'm not entirely joking here; in some areas of the US the police are out of control and regularly get away with murder.

Edit: While gun manufacturers certainly oppose gun-regulation, I don't think its at all accurate to say the profit motive is the driving force behind this opposition. A lot of people really, really love their guns, and the vast majority of those people are not involved in the manufacture or sale of firearms. Humans tend to over-emphasize harms that come from other humans, as opposed to their environment or themselves. Gun control isn't that big of a deal compared to many other causes of death (e.g., disease, war, traffic accidents). Even if gun-related deaths in all other countries dropped to zero and the USA's did not change, logic would demand we still focus on other problems first.

Comparing the US to many other "nations" is profoundly silly, IMO, just as is comparing China to the US. Yes they are both sovereigns, but that is about it. We have 50 states, many of which are larger than European countries, and significant cultural and genetic diversity. I'm fairly certain we have states in the US freer than Oz, or nearly so. A better comparison would probably be the US to the EU (though I might insist we include WWI and WWII in those tabulations). Collective action problems (ironically the very problem governments purportedly help solve) make Good Government a very hard thing to achieve, and obviously increase with population size, diversity, etc. It might help if our constitution was a bit newer; 200+ years is pretty dated. Not that I trust the current crop of politicians to come up with anything better, but the science does exist to craft much better governments than what we have today.

Honestly I'm surprised the US got seventh place. Sure for a lot of people it is probably the freest nation on Earth, but for a lot of people it is decidedly not. My experiences might be skewed because I have a few friends who are public defense attorneys.

[Swift]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

And, once again, I say we have not really seen this as an issue in Australia, despite semi automatic and pump action weapons being banned since 1995 (fully automatic weapons have never been legal to own). Most of the weapons confiscated from criminals (and the majority of those are from criminal bikie gangs) are pistols, shotguns or home made pistols/shotguns/attempts at semi-automatic weapons.

[Adanu]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

And, once again, I say we have not really seen this as an issue in Australia, despite semi automatic and pump action weapons being banned since 1995 (fully automatic weapons have never been legal to own). Most of the weapons confiscated from criminals (and the majority of those are from criminal bikie gangs) are pistols, shotguns or home made pistols/shotguns/attempts at semi-automatic weapons.

I'm talking about the US, not Australia. You can't compare the two in any meaningful way.

[Swift]

I'm talking about the US, not Australia. You can't compare the two in any meaningful way.

And yet you refuse to say who they should be compared to. Statistics are wonderful because they are cold, hard facts that can be used in comparisons. If you believe that the US should not be comparable to anyone, at least say so, so our breath is not wasted on you, otherwise actually answer my query about who the US should be compared to in regards to their gun crime.

[Adanu]

I'm talking about the US, not Australia. You can't compare the two in any meaningful way.

And yet you refuse to say who they should be compared to. Statistics are wonderful because they are cold, hard facts that can be used in comparisons. If you believe that the US should not be comparable to anyone, at least say so, so our breath is not wasted on you, otherwise actually answer my query about who the US should be compared to in regards to their gun crime.

The US is more or less unique, but the closest comparison you can get in terms of political power and cultural collective would most likely be Canada... and even then I don't know if Canada is culturally diverse enough to make that valid either.

Most accurate answer I can give you is simply 'you can't compare it to anyone, as the circumstances in the US are all over the place'. Should I take it you live in Australia?

[gonz.0]

And, once again, I say we have not really seen this as an issue in Australia, despite semi automatic and pump action weapons being banned since 1995

Am I understanding you correctly, that a pump action shot gun is illegal to own in Australia?

[Swift]

They were legal until the 1995 gun reforms. The only a way a civilian can have one now is if they are a collector and the gun is first rendered permanently inoperable.

[kid]

Nothing but pistols is allowed over here.
And even that is not easy to get. And again, about half the country is army people who defently know how to use a gun.

Its just not the best idea in the world to have instruments of mass killing handed out on demand. The benefit compared to the risk seems low.

If someone really feels like they need a gun for thier home security at least have them work for it, test them, teach them, etc, etc. Handing it out like its normal and a "right" is nuts. No matter what some people wrote 250 years ago. Seriously. The world has changed. When they wrote it "arms" meant something completly different.

I will defently defend your rights to carry a Musket.

[I-KP]

And, once again, I say we have not really seen this as an issue in Australia, despite semi automatic and pump action weapons being banned since 1995

Am I understanding you correctly, that a pump action shot gun is illegal to own in Australia?

Not sure how Oz law works but in the UK they're illegal if they have the capacity to hold more than 2 cartridges (or 3 with one up the spout); for pest control and clay shooting there is no need for the weapon to hold more. 'Legal' still doesn't mean that you can walk out and buy one; if you want a shotgun in the UK you still need a national license and local police authority approval granted only after giving a good reason why you need one, satisfactory inspection of premises and confirmation of a clean criminal record.

Nothing above .22 calibre is legal in the UK and even equal or below that ownership is heavily restricted. IMO this is the only sensible approach to adopt for a modern developed nation that does not have national service.

[Swift]

For those curious, these are the gun classifications for Australia, from Wikipedia:

Category A: Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles, and paintball markers. A "Genuine Reason" must be provided for a Category A firearm.
Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.
Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.
Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.
Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. (Albeit both SA and WA do not require deactivated handguns to be regarded as handguns after the deactivation process has taken place. This situation was the catalyst in QLD for the deactivation and diversion of thousands of handguns to the black-market – the loophole shut since 2001) This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.

Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibres are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Category R/E: Restricted weapons: machine guns, rocket launchers, assault rifles, flame-throwers, anti-tank guns, Howitzers, artillery, etc. can be owned by collectors in some states provided that these weapons have been rendered permanently inoperable. They are subject to the same storage and licensing requirements as fully functioning firearms.

Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.

All single-shot muzzleloading firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901 are considered antique firearms. Four states require licences for antique percussion revolvers and cartridge repeating firearms, but in Queensland and Victoria a person may possess such a firearm without a licence, so long as the firearm is registered (percussion revolvers require a license in Victoria).

Australia has very tight restrictions on items which are far less controlled in comparable societies such as the UK. Air pistols, elsewhere unrestricted, are as difficult to get as centrefire and rimfire handguns, and low-powered airguns are as difficult as cartridge arms to license. Airsoft guns are banned in all states and non-firing replicas banned in most. Suppressors (or 'silencers') which are legal in the UK and New Zealand, are extremely restricted in Australia to a few government bodies.[3]

[boombrakh]

Btw, for what it's worth, this is not the direction I was hoping this thread would go.

[Ronan]

Good studies (as in the ones social scientists argue over, not random people on forums) try to take a lot more into account than simply the country. You've got a lot of other variables on a murderer you can feed into your regressions: gun availability, education, race, prior history, mental illness, martial status, gang status, etc. Yes different countries are different in many dimensions, but you can try to compare the same sort of people in different countries to what affect the local laws and firearm availability have.

You could probably learn a lot by looking at these statistics by state. Interestingly Iowa, where nearly half the population owns guns, has the lowest murder rate (1.3 per 100k, the same as Australia's I believe). Its also an open-carry state (meaning you can walk around with a 6-gun on your hip in some places, should you so chose). Hawaii has nearly no guns (6.7%), and about half the national average murder rate (though still twice Iowa's with only 20% of killings done with firearms, and 40% with knives).

Seems like the scientific community largely believes the Australian gun laws of '96 did not affect levels of violence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... _Australia

If someone really feels like they need a gun for thier home security at least have them work for it, test them, teach them, etc, etc. Handing it out like its normal and a "right" is nuts. No matter what some people wrote 250 years ago. Seriously. The world has changed. When they wrote it "arms" meant something completly different.

The second amendment was written to provide states with a way to revolt against a tyrannical federal government. In that sense it could be argued that it supports ordinary people and militias owning military-grade hardware. And yes, archaic constitution is archaic It was ahead of its time in a lot of ways and worked very well for a while. Like all things once cutting-edge it has become otherwise, and will probably remain so until an alternative worth the (massive) cost of switching comes along.

Nothing but pistols is allowed over here.

Alright, but 70% of all firearm murders are done with pistols. Sure they're less useful in mass-killings, but mass-killings don't kill very many people because there aren't very many of them. Pistols also aren't useful for hunting, revolting, or anything except target practice or shooting other civilians really. If I was going to ban a firearm to save lives, I'd start with the pistol. FWIW, my belief is that firearm ownership has no measurable impact on violence, at least not unless you can get it lower than it could ever be in the US, and we really have larger problems to worry about.

A lot of Americans really, really love their guns. I'm not sure many foreigners can appreciate just how much gun-nuts like guns; for many people a ban on firearms would be like a ban on footballs in other countries. You'd probably save more lives by lowering the speed limits 10 mph or so, and maybe even piss fewer people off doing it.

[Swift]

Seems like the scientific community largely believes the Australian gun laws of '96 did not affect levels of violence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... _Australia

Most of those cited studies focus on the rate of suicide by firearm rather than the overall picture of crime in Australia in relation to the 1995 gun reforms.