How to bring back the people?

[paazin]

I enjoy the game as a low level. I would enjoy it more if I had more low levels to adventure with me. I dont enjoy the game as a low level swordsman (or other melee designed character) that is told to stand in back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as I am wasting the party's healing while I go to -6 constantly. Our PCs arent supposed to know their levels. A class level of fighter or ranger or rogue or monk or whatever has enough training that they have a class level. It is total meta to stand in the back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as a character magically gains the swordsmanship to allow them to one day swing that thing at something. Its silly and its OOC, even if it does make sense from a gameplay standpoint.

High levels are fine. Theyve earned it. They deserve the spotlight if and when they are in play with a low level. The problem is that as a low level there are most often ONLY high levels to play with. A good DM might be able to account for a low level, but thats the point: its requires a DM, and it requires a DM that can manage an encounter for a wide range of levels while allowing them to feel as though they accomplished something. Otherwise, without a DM, its just standing behind a meat shield and basking in his glory as you do next to nothing.

Parties of like-leveled players - be they a party of low levels, party of mid levels, or a party of high levels - is fun DnD. Parties with mixed levels is most often not. RPing with a high level mentor-type can be good and often enjoyable RP. Wandering around behind a high level PC as it shows you this or that, basically as your body guard, may be fun for some, but certainly not all. Some of us find it most fun exploring some new place with some buddies in the same boat as ourselves - exploring for the first time, not knowing what to expect, and with the realization that any hurdle encountered will be overcome (or not) based up the skills of you and your friends rather than that body guard mentor standing between ourself and any danger as they show us the ropes.

Maybe multiple PCs will help with the wide level disparities, but, as it stands now, a new player rolling a new PC can pretty much expect to play with other PCs to whom they can not contribute anything outside a lucky roll or lucky healing potion usage or similar during a DMed event. Unless a player wants to play 'catch up' be remaining logged into the game for 8+ hours/day and/or running as many riskless statics as possible, all thats available is playing comfort boy to whatever PC will take you on.

Word. Groups of low-levels rule and it's excellent as the barrier to entry for anyone (and the penalty for permadeath) is small. Really the ALFA model excels in such environments and it's a pity that all that eventually vanishes.

[Ronan]

the point was/is that we are unable with our busy lifes to A. play as much. B. create content to serve all levels equaly. C. DM all levels equaly.
Content + DMing is going to be centered more on mid levels. the more people we have around those levels the better.
would make all our jobs easier.

In a perfect world we would have content for every level and faction and DM for each one to boot. As it is this is not possible, sadly.
Its not the dislike of level X or Z im talking about. its making ALFA more playable for as many players as possible.
again.. i dropped my high level to start anew purely for the fun of it. if you ask me i'd likely not have chosen to start at level 5, but thats cause i can (with some effort) afford the time it would demand of me. others might noy, and that would be something we can offer to make life for our players, who are busy people as well, more enjoyable.

Horrendous grammatical errors aside, these are basically my views as well.

If everything else was equal, I'd probably rather DM levels 10-14, or "highbies". They can do neat epicy stuff, without being so powerful they roll over all the region's NPCs if they feel like it. But everything isn't equal.

[kid]

People are busy, yes, so why not spend available time logging in to play more, complain less?

These are not complaintes. You do not seem to be able to to understand the things that you are reading. My sympathies.

[Xanthea]

I enjoy the game as a low level. I would enjoy it more if I had more low levels to adventure with me. I dont enjoy the game as a low level swordsman (or other melee designed character) that is told to stand in back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as I am wasting the party's healing while I go to -6 constantly. Our PCs arent supposed to know their levels. A class level of fighter or ranger or rogue or monk or whatever has enough training that they have a class level. It is total meta to stand in the back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as a character magically gains the swordsmanship to allow them to one day swing that thing at something. Its silly and its OOC, even if it does make sense from a gameplay standpoint.

You said it. I was fortunate enough to have a decent sized party of similarly leveled people back when I first started playing and going around with them putting the hurt on goblins and orcs and gnolls was good fun. A higher level person turning up and tailing us around was enough to immediately kill the mood as they effortlessly ripped through everything that we struggled (with tactics and planning) to defeat, often turning back to look at us lowly peons and toss a witty quip at our inferiority.

We soon learned to immediately tell them to get lost if they tried to follow us around, or failing at that, leave and go find something else more fun to do.

[t-ice]

What heero said!

People are busy, yes, so why not spend available time logging in to play more, complain less?

I see players (I won't mention names because all it'll do is draw some people's ire towards them - yes, I've seen it happen) who work and have busy lives simply log in and RP their butts off without complaints; they enjoy the game as well as making the game enjoyable for others regardless of what their PC's lvls are or how many mobs they can kill in 3 rounds. These are the guys (and gals) that make the game fun for many of us.

I wish these folks would post more because they benefit ALFA much more than the chronic complainers, and their thoughts deserve to be heard to balance out what's being broadcast out there.

Because if ALFA isn't working out, clearly people and reality need to change to suit ALFA as it is. You're not having fun with ALFA, well shut up, log in, and HAVE fun. Look, those people are having fun, why can't you just be like them?

It's obvious some people are enjoying ALFA as it is, but the reality is that the number is diminishing, which is causing a vicious circle in itself, and the community is right in asking how to widen the appeal and improve what it's offering. Also, notably, to suit a base that is getting older and has less time to play on average. (Maybe we can go back to the old way when a sizeable fraction of the base is retired and again has plenty of time to spend! If these changes don't happen, well, see you guys IG in 30 years.)

[Ithildur]

Huh. So it's gotten to the point where telling folks to log in and have fun is tyrannical and mean... and pointing out positive examples is oppressive and evil. Supremely ironic to me that so many folks who I know are busy with RL seem to simply log in and play happily for the most part.

Alrighty then, I heartily encourage every ALFAN to express your God given right to complain away by all means. We apparently don't yet have enough 17+ page threads like this one and various others of similar substance and tone I've seen recently.

In the meantime, some of us will keep our heads buried in the sand and focus some of what free time we have on things like logging in to enjoy RPing, perhaps even foolishly spend energy on in character threads occasionally or writing contributions to the library instead.

[Veilan]

Our PCs arent supposed to know their levels. A class level of fighter or ranger or rogue or monk or whatever has enough training that they have a class level. It is total meta to stand in the back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as a character magically gains the swordsmanship to allow them to one day swing that thing at something. Its silly and its OOC, even if it does make sense from a gameplay standpoint.

I find the notion that a level 1 character with wisdom >6 should have no concept of his level of aptitude, and thinks he is an accomplished, self assured fighter/leader when almost every person he meets in the actual game we play can kick his ass with ease, a ridiculous assault on reason and an actual case of metagaming: i.e. cheesing, pretending you have abilities that you don't.

How about considering that at level 1, you're a n00blet, a n00blet with far more potential granted, but with a journey still ahead. Instead of demanding instant gratification treatment as an epic hero - preferably backed up by a level 2/3 start, because ALFA making leveling the fastest, easiest and least adventurous it ever was hasn't already dwindled our player numbers enough!

The journey and development of a character is what creates a rewarding experience with a great storyline; characters that come into the world as self-assured leader types are usually boring and stale. The level 2 fighter that breaks down crying in a tough fight, but grows to eventually slice through ogres is a far more epic, easy-to-relate-to and charming character than John McFlawless who starts level 3 with a fixed, non-played background and a gruff action hero persona, and still has the same character traits at level 7.

It's all about the journey, not the goals, and accomplishments are so much more satisfying when earned instead of given. A rediscovering of a spirit of adventure and thrill would benefit this project greatly.

Huh. So it's gotten to the point where telling folks to log in and have fun is tyrannical and mean... and pointing out positive examples is oppressive and evil.

Clearly. How dare you be such a mean tyrant, I mean in the game, you might actually have to face risks and aventure - oh wait, I forgot, you can opt to advance at the same speed no matter your level without taking any risks at all thanks to mail, 'shrooms and rpxp added on top.

Surely, ALFA has been founded with the idea of a narrativist writer's club instead, and forum contributions, such as biographies or library posts, should get more reward than actual adventure. After all, adventuring isn't 100% self-determined, you may not have ultimate control over what happens - especially when one of those mean, ghastly, horrible, murderous DMs is logged in!

Troll out,

[t-ice]

All the trolling aside,

because ALFA making leveling the fastest, easiest and least adventurous it ever was

is actually a worthwhile point. Because this increases the power gaps between much-played and less-played PCs. To decrease the power gaps and to make it easier for people to actually play together, you need to start at a higher level, and to make leveling slower. (Or to make xp gain rates drastically drop with xp already gained)

[kid]

Alrighty then, I heartily encourage every ALFAN to express your God given right to complain away by all means.

No one is complaining... are you trutly that thick or are you trying to troll?

There are issues with a relativly small player base which is vastly divided. we are trying to come up with some ideas to bridge the gaps and allow more people to play togather at any given time. while what -you- do is whine and complain about genuin attempts to come up with something useful. no one here is going ... "waaaa ALFA is bad!"

You may disagree with idea A or B, but at least have a point other than rant and whine mindlessly and suggest things that are impossible like... "Lets make people have more time to play! gaha!".

And finaly, if you think posting ideas is pointless... please, do stop posting yours and go play.

[Veilan]

All the trolling aside,

because ALFA making leveling the fastest, easiest and least adventurous it ever was

is actually a worthwhile point. Because this increases the power gaps between much-played and less-played PCs. To decrease the power gaps and to make it easier for people to actually play together, you need to start at a higher level, and to make leveling slower. (Or to make xp gain rates drastically drop with xp already gained)

we could just divide xp gains from (repeatable) statics by level of character.

Quick, easy, fast and heavily effective diminishing returns scheme. The lower your level, the faster you gain experience from static content - causing all the effects you desire.

I guess it just ain't complicated and populist enough by not throwing free xp at the starting level openly enough - though it in fact, does - you'd get a +100% gain boost compared to level 2.

Cheers,

[t-ice]

we could just divide xp gains from (repeatable) statics by level of character.

Grand idea. Though we probably should first multiply all gains by something like 3. So level 3 PCs gain static xp (quest and combat both!) like now, lower levels gain faster, and highers slower.

The funny part is, pretty much the only difference to a E12-ish scheme with reduced xp for high levels is that the higher level PCs gain wealth more slowly with xp rates cut instead of making it more xp per level. (We still have gp per xp, remember?) Which cuts into the DM's gripes that you're not allowed to reward your PCs with cool stuff because of "silly rules". (Though I dunno if this was mainly only MaxBogs)

[Veilan]

we could just divide xp gains from (repeatable) statics by level of character.

Grand idea. Though we probably should first multiply all gains by something like 3. So level 3 PCs gain static xp (quest and combat both!) like now, lower levels gain faster, and highers slower.

Yeah, that could work, though like now is fine enough (you still get rp xp and DM xp fully, so it ain't so bad, especially as the static circuit now includes four servers) or - but more effort - every quest could be given a "target level", like a CR rating, and gains are calculated by award * target level / level. That would bring its own new considerations and problems though - and it's best to stick to the easiest scheme possible.

The funny part is, pretty much the only difference to a E12-ish scheme with this is that the higher levels gain wealth more slowly with xp rates cut instead of demanding more xp per level. (We still have gp per xp, remember?) Which cuts into the DM's gripes that you're not allowed to reward your PCs with cool stuff because of "silly rules". (Though I dunno if this was mainly only MaxBogs)

I'm personally of the mind that now, as almost all our premises for our wealth tables have been undermined, we should drop the +30% over PnP we have anyway, and cut exponential progression and instead grow it linear from around 10 or so. Only problem with that is that it'd again play to the strengths of full progression casters, and they're already our worst balancing nightmare. But overall, still a change for the better.

Cheers,

[Adanu]

we could just divide xp gains from (repeatable) statics by level of character.

Grand idea. Though we probably should first multiply all gains by something like 3. So level 3 PCs gain static xp (quest and combat both!) like now, lower levels gain faster, and highers slower.

Yeah, that could work, though like now is fine enough (you still get rp xp and DM xp fully, so it ain't so bad, especially as the static circuit now includes four servers) or - but more effort - every quest could be given a "target level", like a CR rating, and gains are calculated by award * target level / level. That would bring its own new considerations and problems though - and it's best to stick to the easiest scheme possible.

The funny part is, pretty much the only difference to a E12-ish scheme with this is that the higher levels gain wealth more slowly with xp rates cut instead of demanding more xp per level. (We still have gp per xp, remember?) Which cuts into the DM's gripes that you're not allowed to reward your PCs with cool stuff because of "silly rules". (Though I dunno if this was mainly only MaxBogs)

I'm personally of the mind that now, as almost all our premises for our wealth tables have been undermined, we should drop the +30% over PnP we have anyway, and cut exponential progression and instead grow it linear from around 10 or so. Only problem with that is that it'd again play to the strengths of full progression casters, and they're already our worst balancing nightmare. But overall, still a change for the better.

Cheers,

If I am understand you right, you're saying cut back on gold across the board and make it more linear in progression?

[Heero]

Our PCs arent supposed to know their levels. A class level of fighter or ranger or rogue or monk or whatever has enough training that they have a class level. It is total meta to stand in the back and shoot a bow for 6 levels as a character magically gains the swordsmanship to allow them to one day swing that thing at something. Its silly and its OOC, even if it does make sense from a gameplay standpoint.

I find the notion that a level 1 character with wisdom >6 should have no concept of his level of aptitude, and thinks he is an accomplished, self assured fighter/leader when almost every person he meets in the actual game we play can kick his ass with ease, a ridiculous assault on reason and an actual case of metagaming: i.e. cheesing, pretending you have abilities that you don't.

How about considering that at level 1, you're a n00blet, a n00blet with far more potential granted, but with a journey still ahead. Instead of demanding instant gratification treatment as an epic hero - preferably backed up by a level 2/3 start, because ALFA making leveling the fastest, easiest and least adventurous it ever was hasn't already dwindled our player numbers enough!

The journey and development of a character is what creates a rewarding experience with a great storyline; characters that come into the world as self-assured leader types are usually boring and stale. The level 2 fighter that breaks down crying in a tough fight, but grows to eventually slice through ogres is a far more epic, easy-to-relate-to and charming character than John McFlawless who starts level 3 with a fixed, non-played background and a gruff action hero persona, and still has the same character traits at level 7.

It's all about the journey, not the goals, and accomplishments are so much more satisfying when earned instead of given. A rediscovering of a spirit of adventure and thrill would benefit this project greatly.

Way to put words in my mouth, bro.

[Veilan]

Way to put words in my mouth, bro.

You know you deserve it!