How to bring back the people?

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Ithildur
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Ithildur »

Galadorn wrote: Being here a long time, I remember super high level PCs were in awe back in ALFA1, and I still want to feel that awe when a PC who has been played a long long time, 2-3+ years etc, and has done some amazing sh*t, walks by. When a PC walks by who's 15th+ in a year, I look the other way with a yawn. I don't "feel" as if that PC earned that "awe".
+1

Not just you, Galadorn. Simply put, not everyone gets to be world shapers; I've played on servers where everyone makes epic levels in a year and it's incredibly lame... especially if the characters' most monumental achievements are "I killed a lot of shit, tagged along on a lot of DM quests, and got rezzed a lot"

People, I beg of you, please don't even say things that sound like this place must turn into BGTOTSC. :cry:
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Rotku
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Rotku »

Good post, Galadorn.
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by t-ice »

Ronan wrote: I will defy the SSM and repeat myself: ALFA does not have the resources to support a full level range (1-20) of player groups. Because of this we economize and support the most common and most easily-DMed levels, which tends to be 5-10ish. This means the lowbies have a rough time surviving and the highbies get bored. I don't see any way to resolve this situation without altering PC level distribution (though a level cap, higher starting level, curved XP rewards, or whatever) or dramatically changing the ruleset to make levels closer in power. Allowing multiple PCs will certainly help this a lot, though you'll always get those people who would rather continue to gain power for their main than play with an alt.
This. 5-10 is the sweet spot, so why do we force people to spread out too much? A lvl10 PC is easily as strong as 3 lvl5s, that should be far more than enough marginal that it feels rewarding to advance. So start at 3 and put a soft cap at 10 or 12, and after that PCs gain a fixed wealth allowance for every 10'000xp, and a feat every 20'000xp. But no more BAB, hp, spell levels. So essentially let's play E10 or E12!

Sure there are "builds" that don't come to their own until epic levels. But if you thought about playing a ALFA PC that comes to her own at level 15, and then you're really going to have teh fun!, I got bad news for you. More importantly, ALFA is not for builds but for characters. As characters levels above 10-12 tend to get ignored anyway because they don't mix with the overall level range. That's the ultimate irony of our system: after great dedication and effort you get a high level character you're invested in, and end up being ignored in your all-powerful lonely corner. How demotivating is that! Or worse, your PC becomes more of a problem in making enjoyable roleplay happen within the community than an asset.

Even within the E# system, PCs don't entirely stop progressing, there is always some rewards. Their progress just slows down from the DnD geometrical curve to a slower linear one, determined by how much wealth per xp, and how much xp per extra feat. Builds that "don't come to their own by lvl# are hybrids of the baseline classes, and a couple of choice bonus feats could go a distance there to make PrCs and the associated stories viable. E# systems tend to have special feats when at cap.

I haven't really played around at MMOs or PW like the BGSSC, but my limited experience tells that level caps are essentially what allows people to play together there, too. It's just that the cap is at 20 or 30, and events are generally geared for these "real deal" players, with rewards that are low-power-boost, high-player-ego-boost like unique gear, houses, titles, etc. Below the cap you're just aspiring.

Still, I don't think we have that many 10+ PCs that level caps is a solve-all. But consider this: Dedicated veteran players of the community, those in the best position to hook in other players (especially new players) by making contact IG and playing together, are greatly hampered from doing so because of the huge level disparity of the PCs.
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

Ronan wrote:
I will defy the SSM...
You have defied me for the last time, betrayer.

::Force Choke::
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by oldgrayrogue »

How about this -- upon attaining level 10 players have the option to roll another PC and make their level 10 PC "campaign only." Both can be played simultaneously, but the 10+ only in DMd campaigns geared towards high levels. You still have the option to stick with just 1 PC.

Frankly, I would prefer 1 PC per server or 1 main PC and 1 Alt playable simultaneously on different servers but the above could be a nice compromise and a progression on the Temp Retirement.
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Strongly disagree with the idea of a level cap, I dislike that folk hit level 10 or more in a year, its sort of crazy to be honest, however when a character has been going for years and years its nice to know they are able to keep progressing.

While the idea of e10 is noble t-ice, and your note about playing characters rather than builds is equally noble, the simple fact is that 3.5 does not support characters of certain concepts until higher levels. And if a player wants to spend 5-8 levels being suboptimal due to a character concept they damn well deserve to get to 'come into their own' later on.

Fyi it's multiclass spellcasters that get hit with the 'shitty stick' as I'll all it in something like e10. Its simply not the case that most are as powerful as three level 5 pcs, in fact they are likely not even as powerful as two well coordinated level 5s or a single level 7-8.

In actual fact all e10 would mean is that tanky pure mêlée characters would outshine everything else, and they already doo pretty good as it is. The one class that'd probably suffer most from it would be pure wizard or sorcerer as they lose more than any other class in such situation (but maybe that's the desire? If so, could just get rid of arcane casters? - and alienate a fair few players, good job!)

OGRS idea has a lot of merit thou.
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Ksiel
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Ksiel »

oldgrayrogue wrote:How about this -- upon attaining level 10 players have the option to roll another PC and make their level 10 PC "campaign only." Both can be played simultaneously, but the 10+ only in DMd campaigns geared towards high levels. You still have the option to stick with just 1 PC.

Frankly, I would prefer 1 PC per server or 1 main PC and 1 Alt playable simultaneously on different servers but the above could be a nice compromise and a progression on the Temp Retirement.
I like these ideas, though I would fully support a 2 pc rule. Keep your favorite, while you can try other concepts. Allows for larger level ranges between the two, more possibility of grouping up, more variety, etc...
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Rotku
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Rotku »

That idea makes a lot of sense, OGR.
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kid
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by kid »

thats a nice idea OGR.

Has some issues on how to implementation. How would we prevent them to be played without DM? would we make a rule? PCs above level10 log automaticly to Q and cant leave without DM? but either way it can be a fun concept.
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Adanu
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Adanu »

'Campaign' PCs sound like fun for PnP stuff... but I'm not too sure about a place like ours. Not only that, but I don't much like the idea that 'I can only play this PC in DM sessions now'. A poll to see if this would actually be received well might be in order. To be fair, we already have this sort of thing going on with higher level PCs anyway... that being said, people with time to spend leveling their PC will always have an advantage over those without, regardless of whatever rules we pick up.

That being said... places like BG thrive because most people do not like losing their PCs because someone else thinks 'real risk is the only decent option'. If we want to pull people from there, we need to relax some of our rules.
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by FoamBats4All »

Out of curiosity, is this thread about how to bring in new/old players, or about how we want to throw a fit against high-level characters and get them forced away?

Let's get back on topic.

People who don't play here often, or don't play here at all anymore but still manage to play the forums: What can we realistically do to make ALFA more appealing to you?
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by CloudDancing »

So this converstation really brings me back to what players really want: to be the center of attention or at least one of the centers of attention in a regular, predictable plot with scheduled times in which they KNOW when they show there will be a DM to give them that attention. Alfa is older now. We have lives outside and there is school, work, children, spouses, and our own outside hobbies. Tabletop gaming has always been about coming together (usually just once a month) for four to nine hours and just RPing, joking, eating, and having a good time together.

And pretty much, as much as people are willing to spend time grinding through fine tuning of the program and the UI, I keep thinking it is utterly futile because that energy should be spent attracting players, enriching the RP aspect of the environment (NOT the button pushing aspect or further crippling player's survival with unneeded nitpicking), and creating a place that not only offers campaigns BUT lives up to the standard the open servers are providing.

Two other players I know have mentioned this standard that Kemo has set. That includes the full implementation of all Kemo animations. That includes the full implementation of all available heads and body models plus all hair unlocked for all races. That includes the full implementation of an auction house. That includes the full implementation of a memory based banking system that removes the persistent chest entirely from the equation. That includes the BBS system (that BG has sort of) that works properly in-game. Ideally that would include a table of crafting materials that randomly (or purposely) spawn in loot finds and in spawned nodes that can be used for crafting. Thankfully we implemented the Kemo chair and couch system and many of us builders have complete control of creating platforms via the Kemo beds pre-mades templates.

When a player comes to Alfa they are comfortable with those things. When they come here they expect the training wheel, super easy quests and safer outcomes that provides them with a feeling of success. Thanks to MMOs success based PW outcomes are expected to be profuse and full of positive reinforcement as they are on other servers who happen to retain player bases of 100+ players 24 hours a day.

If you think back to all the negative reinforcement this "skinner box" is providing is it not NATURAL people develop an aversion to playing here? Psychologically we are failing in providing consistent positive reinforcement. If anything the social RP is the one sweet part of Alfa that keeps people still coming back, not to really adventure, or go kill monsters, but to interact socially with characters and Dms that challenge and amuse them. This builds the extra enjoyment of long-lasting friendships.

Alfa has tried being nasty, mean, banning people, being extremely restrictive, telling players to go cry by themselves, negatively confronting people who are just learning how to RP, tried to stop farming and exploits, and shut down a good percentage of people who were really excited and wanted to contribute to the project in my time. What is worse the election system has consistently run off one dedicated player (or forum poster) per election.

So it is time to examine with frank honesty:
1. What do players outside of Alfa expect as a standard for a PW with an emphasis on RP? Why can't we provide that?
2. What does Alfa have to offer them?

For example, Alfa has a VERY special construct of admin that attempt to protect players from chaotic players and dms, harassment, and moderates itself. Pretty much every server outside of that is run by a dictator-like HDMs that pretty much steamrolls over anything they don't like and great unfairness occurs. Another would be the demand of a fully immersive RP environment with strict rules about IC and OC commentary.
3. What caused new players to leave in the past and never return?
*mean people telling them their RP sucked
*mean people in private tells and chat rooms again being virulently nasty about other players skills and personal lives
*being sexually harassed and either not dealing with it, or having the admin not respond accordingly and discipline or remove that DM/Player
*no one to play with
*dying repeatedly and loosing characters they spent a great deal of time on developing
*nothing to do here
*the perception of "missing out" and being ignored by dms (due to the perception a Dm "can't" teleport players where they want them WHEN they want them or that some groups are exclusive. That exclusivity on such small servers is frustrating to players not "in" the group.)
*the "rules" being loosely/stringently applied depending on whom is accused of breaking them or watching others simply ignored while not following them. Often this is random as happening to get caught when a Dm logs on, when that system of abuses was learned from other players that do not get caught or seem to think they are above that standard of practice because they are allowed to continue on unmonitored.
4. Why are the majority of Alfa's members not involved in any aspect of Alfa outside of connecting with old friends and posting on the forums? How has Alfa's purpose and existence changed from being a online series of vibrant well populated PW on NWN1 to a group of people who spend time together in online chat and in forums talking about what they love best?

Perhaps the organization needs to redefine itself not so much as a provider of an online tabletop gaming group with NWN2, but insomuch an group of people from multiple platforms who come together to be an online social community with an emphasis on gaming which it really seems to be.
Last edited by CloudDancing on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ksiel
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Ksiel »

What if we dump NWN2 and go back to NWN1? Rebuild some of those servers. I know we had a lot more options in that format, my computer could run it with ease, and I could even build and script in that one.

I bet you would bring back some old timers then!
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Ronan »

All you n00bs should stop whining and start DMing! That will get people back in game. Don't like all those cheaty highbies? Get rid of them the old fashioned way, untimely death! You can't do that in the forums or in the player client.

I know, many of you are terrible RPers, or only want to DM in order to grief that PC you've always hated. Thats ok! BG's standards are exceptionally low (hell there's talk of letting Xan in). Provided you limit your griefing to 1-2 PCs, I'm fine with it. Twinking your friends if fine too; we just need DMs!

Also I am trying to drag the other (lazy good-for-nothing) admin into a serious multi-PC discussion.
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Re: How to bring back the people?

Post by Stormbring3r »

Ksiel wrote:What if we dump NWN2 and go back to NWN1? Rebuild some of those servers. I know we had a lot more options in that format, my computer could run it with ease, and I could even build and script in that one.

I bet you would bring back some old timers then!

+1

I am sure that would bring back several of the old ALFA members.

I wold love to see the LW or DD or even DF servers again.
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