Moonshaes Improvement Programme

[t-ice]

Very much the setup of "clerics win (with tanky fighters a close second)."

More grease spells and touch attacks are clearly needed. How about some pesky fey gnat with a warlock level - and another with a sorc level? Though hitting the will save is much more stereotypical of the fey... Oh wait, I'm playing one of those tanky fighters now ... umm, nevermind.

[Zelknolf]

More grease spells and touch attacks are clearly needed. How about some pesky fey gnat with a warlock level - and another with a sorc level? Though hitting the will save is much more stereotypical of the fey... Oh wait, I'm playing one of those tanky fighters now ... umm, nevermind.

Well, warlocks are also best defeated by a mid-level cleric (once they have spell resistance, sooner and more effectively if we ever implement spell immunity)

But sure, bad guys who prepare grease, web, or dispel magic. Challenges that require PCs to move across difficult physical obstacles. Challenges that require resolving riddles or puzzles. Challenges that force skill checks, or which become costly if no skilled PC is present. Put a team of archers on the other side of a ravine, with the only access being a slippery moss-covered log, and a 30 foot drop to a craggy bottom-- winners in that encounter will be archers (being the best at returning fire) and monks (being able to deflect arrows and likely to make their balance checks, as well as having to make fewer checks thanks to faster movement). Clerics, of course, suffer from a chronic lack of mobility, and typically have to throw spells and/or consumables at such a challenge to still perform worse than the monks.

[dergon darkhelm]

Challenges that require PCs to move across difficult physical obstacles. Challenges that require resolving riddles or puzzles. Challenges that force skill checks, or which become costly if no skilled PC is present. Put a team of archers on the other side of a ravine, with the only access being a slippery moss-covered log, and a 30 foot drop to a craggy bottom-- winners in that encounter will be archers (being the best at returning fire) and monks (being able to deflect arrows and likely to make their balance checks, as well as having to make fewer checks thanks to faster movement). Clerics, of course, suffer from a chronic lack of mobility, and typically have to throw spells and/or consumables at such a challenge to still perform worse than the monks.

Yep -- mandate a balance check and you de-tankify in a hurry!

(( I'm dergon darkhelm and I roguely support this message ))

[Blindhamsterman]

here here for the balance checks

infact, here here for skill checks of all shapes and sizes!

[Ithildur]

+1

Environmental factors/skillchecks should often be as deadly as pointy sticks held by enemies. That's part of the fun of ALFA/dnd vs plain ol boring NWN2; stuff like water, weather, narrow bridges, etc can all make life dangerous. That's what happens in good adventure stories too; the fellowship of the Ring got pwned by a mountain snowstorm worse than they ever got pwned by orcs (although one can argue that was DM railroading!), there's the scene where Aragorn and Frodo roll massive balance checks to get across the chasm in Moria, Gimli barely making the jump check and someone having to roll dex to grab his beard, the three hunters rolling epic CON/fort checks to run day after day in search of two hobbits, etc. Those are fun and often make for great stories.

[t-ice]

Those are fun and often make for great stories.

Tellingly enough, you failed to present an example where such a check is a great story when it failed and leads to death. I'd wager that's why such a death is rare. Whereas as close as your LotR example, arguably the death of Boromir in combat is great enough a story.

[Blindhamsterman]

Boromir was a boss man...

I mean really, his death was pretty epic for the utter baddassery he displayed

IMO skill checks that are done outside of a DM should not result in death, but might make death due to something else more likely!

e.g. balance check across a chasm might not result in death if failed but drop you into a moldy cave with some form of monster, or it might drop you into a river where swim checks could be made instead.

a climb check done solo that is failed might well result in death (without the right gear anyway... a rope thats been tied at the top by someone should make death for the others impossible for example, but a climb check failed while going solo might be fair game for death or near death I guess.

perhaps static dungeon areas which require a tumble test to get past a swiftly closing door!! (if failed you're trapped till you dispatch the newly emerging denizens?

jump checks for smaller jumps that are failed might trigger a reflex save followed by strength test for either you to catch a ledge and haul yourself up, or an ally to catch you and haul you up...

etc etc

[Ithildur]

Those are fun and often make for great stories.

Tellingly enough, you failed to present an example where such a check is a great story when it failed and leads to death. I'd wager that's why such a death is rare. Whereas as close as your LotR example, arguably the death of Boromir in combat is great enough a story.

Failures in of themselves aren't necessarily great stories (though honestly, sometimes spectacular death/failure stories ARE fun). Real possibility of real failure, including really lethal failure, can and does enhance stories, especially of narrow escapes, spectacular successes. Reading through some highlights in this thread demonstrates this: http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... =3&t=47946

Failed skill checks in DnD always could very well lead to death; heck 3.5e is kid gloves compared to earlier editions. A lvl 2 fighter in full plate carrying a tower shield who dives into rapids will probably die, just as that same fighter jumping into a cave full of angry wyverns will also probably die.

The good story isn't necessarily the stupid death itself obviously, but thoughtfully worked out deadly non-combat challenges can make death/survival/success/failure etc. more meaningful in our style of storytelling, vs 'lolz, i rolled a 2 and died trying to jump that gorge, oh well, respawn!' That epic leap across the chasm to escape danger isn't so epic if the DC is arbitrarily set to 5 just to make sure no one ever dies.

On the other hand intentionally setting up an absolutely unavoidable 'DC 30 balance check or die' situation for a group of lvl 1's... probably isn't such a good idea. ALFA2 has gone to a slightly less hardcore approach to death with stuff like the -6 cap and such; I suppose adjusting skillchecks and other non combat challenges so it's not as fully lethal as PnP at times matches things. *shrug*

And... back on topic... bottom line, non combat challenge ideas like some listed by others are often a great idea, a part of DnD, and fun, not as fun if there's no chance of failure and no real consequences for failing.

[ElCadaver]

Those are fun and often make for great stories.

Tellingly enough, you failed to present an example where such a check is a great story when it failed and leads to death. I'd wager that's why such a death is rare. Whereas as close as your LotR example, arguably the death of Boromir in combat is great enough a story.

Failures in of themselves aren't necessarily great stories. Real possibility of real failure, including really lethal failure, can and does enhance stories, especially of narrow escapes, spectacular successes. Reading through some highlights in this thread demonstrates this: http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... =3&t=47946

Failed skill checks in DnD always could very well lead to death; heck 3.5e is kid gloves compared to earlier editions. A lvl 2 fighter in full plate carrying a tower shield who dives into rapids will probably die, just as that same fighter jumping into a cave full of angry wyverns will also probably die.

The good story isn't necessarily the stupid death itself obviously, but thoughtfully worked out deadly non-combat challenges can make death/survival/success/failure etc. more meaningful in our style of storytelling, vs 'lolz, i rolled a 2 and died trying to jump that gorge, oh well, respawn!' That epic leap across the chasm to escape danger isn't so epic if the DC is arbitrarily set to 5 just to make sure no one ever dies.

On the other hand a DM setting up an absolutely unavoidable 'DC 30 balance check or die' situation for a group of lvl 1's would be pretty silly. ALFA2 has gone to a less hardcore approach to death with stuff like the -6 cap as well; I suppose adjusting skillchecks and other non combat challenges so it's not as fully lethal as PnP at times matches the 'spirit' of ALFA2. *shrug*

One time in paper D&D, I tried to hang underneath a bridge crossing a raging torrent, to avoid a Black Dragon breath attack. I failed the check to hold on, fell in, and got swept down stream into the tenticles of a Roper. I then failed the strength check to get out of it's grasp, and it ate my poor PC's head.

[dergon darkhelm]

One time in paper D&D, I tried to hang underneath a bridge crossing a raging torrent, to avoid a Black Dragon breath attack. I failed the check to hold on, fell in, and got swept down stream into the tenticles of a Roper. I then failed the strength check to get out of it's grasp, and it ate my poor PC's head.

The first module that I ran in 3.0 was a low level adventure called The Sunless Citadel

It made liberal use of skill ckecks and these things were totally new to both me as the DM and my players.

2 encounters stand out. The first was trying to cross a swinging rope bridge (bal check was only DC10 to make progress but with heavy armor that can be a real challenge) or fall into a gorge below.....all while being attacked by goblin archers.

The second was a roper in a partially flooded cavern that had a gently sloping floor leading into the water that had a very slippery footing where algae had grown. The ropwer basically just sat there and made it's living waiting for goblins (or PCs ) to slip down the slope.

The whole encounter was great though because a PC would slide painfully slowly at 5ft per round, giving the other PCs opportunities to throw ropes (handle rope check) or get on their belly to reach out a hand (both balance and str check or a second PC is in trouble!) etc.

These are both fun and help to rebalance skill based PCs.

Oh yeah....
And did I mention ---why are there so few set traps in ALFA these days!? There were tons in NWN1. We need more traps!

[Cast_No_Shadow]

Fantastic ideas been thrown about here. I'm very keen on incorporating some varied and interesting skill checks into the new statics.