Playing a warlock ... as I see it

[Castano]

thank you t-ice...for pointing out all the meta that goes into sniffing out classes of everyone around here.

[NESchampion]

thank you t-ice...for pointing out all the meta that goes into sniffing out classes of everyone around here.

No one will ever figure out Olaf is a sorcerer though.

[Castano]

thank you t-ice...for pointing out all the meta that goes into sniffing out classes of everyone around here.

No one will ever figure out Olaf is a sorcerer though.

Olaf is really gold dragon in gnome form.....I know I approved his extraordinary application.

[Blindhamsterman]

stand by it not being meta if you successfully pass the ID check that a spellcraft roll entails.

The whole point is that the one that knows about spellcraft actually does Identify the spell it's not a case of 'oooh a ray' its a case of 'oooh ray of frost' or 'oooh eldritch blast'.

I point to here on showing how spellcraft works:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

[t-ice]

Knowledge:Aracana covers "magic traditions"
Knowledge:Planes covers "magic related to the planes"

What's even the point of knowledge if spellcraft immediately tells you everything? Spellcraft: "Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.)"

It's certainly not unambiguous what does "identify" mean. But it certainly doesn't mean "read from the rulebooks, and you know everything related to this spell/effect and classes that cast it". It doesn't say spellcraft in any way identifies the source of the magic. The purpose of the check is knowing effects for tactical reasons.

Yes you know it's a "ray of frost" as opposed to "just a ray", so you know your elemental protection will protect you, and it's possible for a nimble target to evade the ray, and that the destructive potential of the ray is quite limited. You also know that ray of frost is one of the simplest spells.

But you don't know that ray of frost does 1d4+1 cold damage, it's only available to wizards and sorcerers, and that wizards can cast upto 4 of them a day, but are unlikely to have prepared that many, whereas sorcerers can spontaneously cast upto 6 of them a day. Which means a sorc could dish out another ray of frost more likely than a wizard. And because the caster is wielding a morning star, which is a simple weapon with which wizards aren't proficient, it's almost surely a sorcerer, so more rays of frost are likely incoming. That needs a lot more knowledge in "magic traditions".

But really all of this points out the difficulty of any "finding out sneaky PCs" RP. Warlocks are just the most prominent for their OoC obviousness and strict alignment restrictions. There will be differing viewpoints each of which will have some justification, and no way to impose the One True Way. Even if we would by some magic agree on one.

Much of this surely happens sans DM which makes it even more hard, since it's super meh to start retconning some player who decided for himself that his PC knows enough that he found out the other PC and understands what a grave threat she must be. And players who are bored (and higher level than the target) will more likely cherish any excuse to spice up things with cvc conflict (even if it's only threats and shunning, not violence). Even if it means ruining the other guys game without giving a fair chance to twarth the "fingering out" (such as opposed rolls).

So ... *shrug*

[dergon darkhelm]

Same with every spell: ICly the character knows "that spell provides armor-like defense"(any AC buff), or "the spell the mage is going to cast flings an exploding ball of fire!"(fireball). Successful spellcraft check doesn't allow your PC to read from the rulebooks, deduce that this spell is only in the spell list of this and that class, and in that domain, and since he's a cleric of that deity he can't have that domain, etc.

It requires significant knowledge in addition to the spellcraft check to deduce that e-blast means it must be derived from evil/chaotic planar beings doing pacts with mortals.

I could care less for warlocks either way. *shrugs*

But I disagree with this above.

The successful spellcraft check would does *not* mean that a PC knows only that another character is casting "that spell provides armor-like defense". It means a lot more than that. It can differentiate Mage Armor from Shield of Faith definitively for instance.

Trained wizards learn about magic in general, not just the spells they know. They would certainly study lists of magics available to various casters and caster types. For a battle-mage, this could be the basis of a life or death decision in combat.

Wizards would learn at least about the existance of magics that lie outside the standard compendium of arcana, like e-blast, and learn about the source and nature of such magics. The depth of understanding of the would vary by training, but I don't see any reason why a trained (mid-level or so) wizard who witnesses the casting of an invocation wouldn't have some understaning of the aberrant nature of the magic being utilized.

A wizard with an 18 int and some ranks of spellcraft and formal magical training can reasonably be expected to deduce a hell of a lot. Stay away from them if you don't want them all up in your magical business.

[Blindhamsterman]

FYI - I didnt once suggest that knowing its an e-blast means you know it was powered by evil/planar powers.

I said it means you know its a e-blast. you don't know it does x damage. but you DO recognise it as an eldritch blast

to recognize that it is indeed an eldritch blast also means you have to know it's basic IC characteristics - which should include knowing its a warlock power, not a sorcerer/wizard spell. (i'd never suggest a spellcraft roll could tell the difference between a wizard and sorcerer... or even a wizard and cleric if it was a spell in both lists)

[t-ice]

Wizards would learn at least about the existance of magics that lie outside the standard compendium of arcana, like e-blast, and learn about the source and nature of such magics.

Yes, yes they usually would, and thus they have all the knowledge skills as class skills. But you do obviously have to invest in the knowledge skills to know the "source and nature" stuff. Just being a wizard of level X, or even high ranks of spellcraft doesn't count. Wide and deep knowledge of stuff is the knowledge skill, and arcana and planes seems to be the ones to cover warlocks.

you have to know it's basic IC characteristics - which should include knowing its a warlock power, not a sorcerer/wizard spell.

The key here is again that your PC shouldn't think in terms of N base classes and stamp characters foreheads with them. That's metagaming. Even though for sake of char sheets and game mechanics a player must choose between warlock and sorcerer, period, ICly the landscape of magic sources and powers should be more fluid. How does your character know that the Realms cannot have a wizard or sorcerer that develops a spell that manifests power just like an e-blast?

(In fact there well could be such a spell, even a progression of e-blast like spells with increasing power, but that's house rules that we know will not be included in alfa. But your PC doesn't know that. With significant know:arcana ranks he would have a good idea that such would be rare, though, and with significant know:planes ranks he would know that such powers are often the manifestaions of pacts with evil/chaotic planar powers. But he cannot know that some mage more powerful and knowledgeable than he couldn't develop such a spell and start to disseminate it. That's metagaming by reading the rulebooks that alfa basis on.)

[dergon darkhelm]

How does your character know that the Realms cannot have a wizard or sorcerer that develops a spell that manifests power just like an e-blast?

I'm sure a wizard might consider that possibility......but it would be a strange rarity that would likely prompt *greater* scrutiny of the caster, not less.

I would have a hard time seeing a Spellguard wizard, having just witnessed (and identified) an eldritch blast, saying....

"Well, that sure is a strange magic that seems a lot like those abhorrent eldritch blasts they taught us about back at the University that are often associated with darkdoers, but...... in this case I'm sure it's just some harmless and bizarre manifestration of Mystra's will. Move along!"

I would think more likely would be:

Hey! You are using strange magics! You are hereby taken into custody of the Spellguard!"

[SwordSaintMusashi]

How does your character know that the Realms cannot have a wizard or sorcerer that develops a spell that manifests power just like an e-blast?

Because the PC has Spellcraft, that's how.

[t-ice]

How does your character know that the Realms cannot have a wizard or sorcerer that develops a spell that manifests power just like an e-blast?

Because the PC has Spellcraft, that's how.

Then he would be mistaken. See destroy seed:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/destroy.htm
"Deals damage of no particular type or energy", just like an e-blast. Yes it's an epic spell seed, but brewing a low-level spell with the "magic damage" effect as a ray is not only conceivable, but even rather simple an exercise. Essentially "orb of eldricth energy". Your character knowing that such spell-brewing possibilities are not used in alfa, which is a pw as opposed to single-dm environment, is rather obvious metagaming.

Hey! You are using strange magics! You are hereby taken into custody of the Spellguard!"

Certainly no arguments there. Rather safe than sorry is a fully valid IC policy, and a IDd e-blast would at least be something not known to be all good and fluffy.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

And you know what? His spellcraft check would be able to identify that that spell is epic level magic (if he can pass the DC).

The PC in question is not wrong, you're just still trying to argue your silly point. The rules work as the rules work, whether you like it or not.

[Swift]

Then he would be mistaken. See destroy seed:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/destroy.htm
"Deals damage of no particular type or energy", just like an e-blast. Yes it's an epic spell seed, but brewing a low-level spell with the "magic damage" effect as a ray is not only conceivable, but even rather simple an exercise. Essentially "orb of eldricth energy". Your character knowing that such spell-brewing rules are not used in alfa, which is a pw as opposed to single-dm environment, is obvious metagaming.

Alright, so you brew up your EB ripoff and go casting away at enemies. Someone with spellcraft ranks sees you cast it and if they pass the check, while they may not know what you have called it, they could identify what magics are involved in it and what those magics are likely to be doing. They may not immediately know how you have managed to make a spell that does not do damage of any known energy type, but they sure as hell would know what the spell is doing.

The whole point of Spellcraft is to identify spells and magic effects, regardless of the source. Well read wizards have enough knowledge to fill entire libraries outside of the magic they directly put into use.

If a warlock fires off an EB in the presence of a wizard and that wizard passes his Spellcraft check, it means that Wizard knows what spell has been cast and that it is not arcane magic. Mages are the absolute best placed people to infer the source that is providing the magic behind said EB spell.

[Blindhamsterman]

spellcraft covers spells, knowledge arcana is actually a broader thing, it covers arcane related monsters (such as dragons) information on specific wizards and how spells were created (and probably by who), information on magic items etc would all be knowledge arcana.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)

And warlock may be an OOC class - but its also an IC designation, they aren't the same as sorcerers.

At the very most, a knowledge arcana would be needed along with spellcraft for more concise knowledge of what warlocks are and how they get their powers, IDing exactly what a spell is... falls under Spellcraft checks. it really is as simple as that. And Invocations are not standard arcane spells - they are distinct and would be recognisable as such to someone with the appropriate amount of skill in spellcraft.


<edit>
p.s. should note, i've never tried to CvC anyone - let alone warlocks, this isn't me trying to get a 'free pass' to CvC anyone
p.p.s. enough with throwing 'metagaming' accusations around as well please, reading the rules on how it works, understanding what a spell is, and its magic type falls under spellcraft - as Swift says you may not know the 'name' of the spell but you know how it works, where the source of power etc is.

[t-ice]

enough with throwing 'metagaming' accusations around as well please

Never did meant to accuse anyone. Sorry if I came across that way.

you may not know the 'name' of the spell but you know how it works, where the source of power etc is.

Which is where I do still disagree. "Reading rules" say "identify spell", which leaves wide enough margin to interpret. We certainly all seem to agree that "what the spell does" is included (destructive ray of pure magical energy). But surely you don't know all of "how it works" and "source of power", since we also seem to agree that the identify can't directly even tell if it's arcane or divine. Let alone which god if divine, or sorc or wiz if arcane. Perhaps we want to set warlock magic so clearly apart, but it does seem harsh for a class that largely takes subterfuge to be viable.

But yes, we could argue here all day (or week), and it wouldn't make a difference. These things are not only open to different interpretation by different DMs, but by players, who must decide how to RP after rolling successful spellcraft on this and that spell or ability by that other PC. And there's really no way to shoehorn it.