Touch attacks?

[t-ice]

This has been a longstanding ire of mine. I want to make creatures that use touch attacks. Reasons of variety, as well as to balance the palette away from heavy armor is tha king. But alas, the game doesn't seem to bend that way.

So please, discussion and suggestions.

Is there a way to go around this in the toolset, some way to simulate touch attacks when making blueprints and (creature) weapons?

Could we add mechanics and pieces to the core rules to allow making touch attacking monsters in the toolset? If we could have, say, base items for "creature melee touch attack" and "creature ranged touch attack", I think it would be brilliant and open a slew of new options. Item properties otherwise have the necessary pieces to have these attacks deal appropriate damages. Perhaps even making the reality on the ground in the game more varied and interesting. Lots of bang for the buck.

[Blindhamsterman]

monsters with touch attacks would be very cool.

one solution is to have more spawns that make use of touch spells i.e. goblin clerics with inflict light wounds etc.
or ranged touch attack spells too.

I've not looked into it but I don't think basic attacks can be made to be touch attacks.

[dergon darkhelm]

monsters with touch attacks would be very cool.

one solution is to have more spawns that make use of touch spells i.e. goblin clerics with inflict light wounds etc.
or ranged touch attack spells too.

I've not looked into it but I don't think basic attacks can be made to be touch attacks.

The advanced goblin AI on TLR had inflict spells high up on the list of otpions...they could kick your ass.

[t-ice]

So, sticking spell like abilities on monsters? Warlock e-blast? Do these work? Put with infinite uses on the blueprint, say? Any experience on using them would be appreciated. How does the AI behave? Should I not give a creature with a spell-like ability any normal attacks to not let the Artificial Stupidity decide? I suppose on a quick thought one could use :

Warlock e-blast on the creature. Does this need actual warlock levels, just the feat, or is it really somewhere like special abilities?

Spell like abilities:
Inflict Wounds
Shocking Grasp
Ghoul Touch
Vampiric Touch
(Lesser) Orb of X
Scorching Ray
Enervation
(Some high-level killers not relevant here. Disintegrator Beast anyone =P )
Other useful spells?
I suppose these are set on the blueprint at CL (spell level*2 - 1). Anything else to consider here?

[Blindhamsterman]

problem with giving things touch spells as infinite abilities is it doesn't reflect the CR, I'd suggest that it'd be better to aim at creating wizard, warlock, cleric, sorcerer and druid monsters for each race, and giving them touch spells or ranged touch spells.

add them as random spawns anywhere that non caster versions of the same creatures spawn

[JaydeMoon]

Pretty sure when you give a creature a 'spell-like ability' as T-Ice states, they are limited by use/day.

While SRD is king, there are definitely rules for making up your own monsters and stuff. I think as long as we vetted them, it would be fine.

[t-ice]

Yeah, CR is a separate issue. If we can make it on the engine, we can slap it with an effective CR close enough, no doubt. I'm not concerned with spawns beyond DM-events, anyway, but naturally I can see people thinking that, too.

Question really is approximating SRD close as possible. There are many things with touch attacks, after all. For one prime example the Shadow, of which the NWN2 representation seriously sucks ... things.

[dergon darkhelm]

Other things I have seen used (NWN1) to make monsters tougher:

Tanglefoot bags used by two in a group while the other two charge.

Primary use of a "hold person" spell by a shaman (rather than Bane/bless which tens to be their first choice.)


A couple energy arrows/bolt/s slingstones (reflected in the lewt drop if killed) to soften PCs with ranged attacks.



While these aren't necessarily about "touch attacks" they can make a challenge more balanced.

Oh.........nothing wrong with giving the monsters alchemist's fire either


Like others mentioned, just adjust the CR and make sure the reward matches...then go for it!

[danielmn]

I encountered this problem when trying to make Stirge blueprints. Their Str. decreaser is a touch attack and I had no way of emulating this...

[dergon darkhelm]

Complete guesswork --since I don't know how things work in the engine at all.

But isn't "knockdown" a melee touch? There must be creatures that have knowckdown built in...how do they script it?

[Zelknolf]

I would suggest a workaround hack that you did minimum build on for now (i.e. "These shadows cast inflict moderate wounds 3 times before actually fighting you!") and note that this could indeed be done properly -- it would just require some hak changes to do so.

[t-ice]

So, Zelk, you're saing this:

base items for "creature melee touch attack" and "creature ranged touch attack"

Could be done with haks (and probably 2das)?

I don't know enough of nwn2 coding to start such a project, and can't say I'm seeing devoting enough time to learn it myself anytime soon. But if it's possible, then it could at least be put up through the "b-game", and there on the list for hc builders (meaning Zelk and/or AL, I suppose) to hopefully pick up some day?

[Zelknolf]

Not quite. We'd be adding super-special spells that exist only for the sake of giving monsters touch attacks, and then creating super-special feats that only reference those spells, and then flagging those feats as attacks (so the AI knows they're there, and knows to spam them like it does knockdown), and then giving those feats to those monsters.

To the person creating the touch attacks, it is blood and sweat. To the person building the creature with the touch attack, it will be checking a box on the feats list. But it can be done, and it would probably be worthwhile; our specters and shadows are gimp'd.

[t-ice]

Ok. So if I understood that right, the blood and sweat (probably tears too, for good measure?) need be done separately for every different type of touch attack? If something like shadow are ubiquitous enough, sure that might make sense. But yeah, no-go on the touch attack template to build with then.

[Zelknolf]

So if I understood that right, the blood and sweat (probably tears too, for good measure?) need be done separately for every different type of touch attack?

Almost correct.

It is blood and sweat (but no tears! Zelknolf is incapable of emotion! >:| ) because it needs 2da entries and a script for every type of touch attack. One can also note that there are schemes to things like, say, the save DCs on undead deathfondles -- which I've seen other people build, y'know "Touch attack, DC 12" and "Touch attack, DC 14" (but it's all touch attack, DC 10 + HD/2 + Cha mod -- a clever one might note that it's the same way with natural poisons, but with con mods) -- and, if we're willing to thrust a little extra complexity on the builders, we can reduce "type" to be "ability drain" v. "ability damage" v. "hp damage" v. "level drain" instead of, say "Touch Attack, 2d6 hp" v. "Touch Attack, 1d6 str drn" v. "Touch Attack, 1d8 str drn" and then have the details determined by variables.

Usual consequences for that, 'course. It will get used less frequently if it's harder to use, but those who figure it out will use it more effectively.