Class: "Swordmage"

[t-ice]

Since there's some talk wallowing about on classes, and adding PrC in particular, here's a suggestion of two class additions I think be in demand and add significant bang for the buck. For the purposes here, I'm only describing in general terms, exact details of the abilities doesn't make or break.

1) A prestige class for Fighter/Wizards.
Before you think "Eldritch Knight" ... Okay, so you though it already. But hear me out anyway, this isn't EK but better. The niche here is the fighter with some limited arcane skill. The EK is vice versa, the mage that learns some fighting skills later in his career. So instead of a wizard that loses just a little bit of his casting ability to gain some fighting prowess (EK essentially loses 1 caster level for high BAB), this is the fighter that loses a bit of fighting prowess in exchange for some arcane ability later in progression. I think a path along these lines would hold some significant interest among our players? Perhaps in part because a single-class fighter can seem dull, and rolling a lvl1 wizard can seem a bit DoA.

The prototype here would be something like Spellsword. High-BAB, casting progression every 2nd level, some special abilities related to fighting while casting arcane.

[EDIT: Split to it's own topic]

What do you all think? Interest anyone beside yours truly?

How about that, huh!? I actually suggested classes my own PC isn't going to take

[Adanu]

The first PrC is something I would definitely see Zyrus possibly taking up one day, considering his stats and the people he travels with.

[mogonk]

Yes, a fighter that can cast spells is different from a wizard who can use a sword, but it's such a small niche. More to the point, why does there need to be a PrC for that? A fighter 5/wizard 3 is a fighter that can cast spells. Concept achieved. Hell, that character can start taking EK at lvl 11, when he's a fighter 5/wizard 5, and yet remain a very different character than the wizard who used a feat for martial weapon proficiency and took EK at lvl 6.

As for the NPC classes...I don't know. Maybe there is a demand for that. It's hard for me to imagine, given how limited they are, but maybe there is. If there are people who are dying to play an expert, by all means, let's give them that option.

[Veilan]

I mostly concur on the "swordmage". Why should we introduce yet another narrowing-down PrC filter, when the allotment of levels in more general classes provides a nigh unlimited possibility of different concepts?
Mix & match is just superior in every aspect I can think of. Players retain more freedom in development, and characters thus are not "yeah, swordmage - seen one, seen all". Then add that we do not need further tech implementation, and we do not open up new combinations for balancing concerns.

Let us not forget that DnD is a game that could be perfectly played with just the four core classes - rogue, fighter, cleric, wizard - and use our creativity instead of asking for cookie cutter classes that, in effect, produce cloned characters, if maybe not always roleplay-wise, then certainly mechanics-wise.

Cheers,

[Blindhamsterman]

here's a fun alternative....

lets scrap all the classes, and replace them with the Unearthed arcana 'warrior, expert and spellcaster'

the concept that adding adding new classes is a negative is sort of silly, assuming they're made appropriately and balanced, and we have folk that want to work on them, there shouldn't be an issue.

All character concepts could be made (actually easier) using the warrior, expert and spellcaster generic classes, as things like evasion etc are feats instead of class abilities.

that said, I'm clearly (and always have been) in favour of adding new content if there is
a) a desire for it
b) someone willing to work on it (or better yet, someone that WANTS to work on it)
c) we take a little time to ensure it's not broken (i.e. it's balanced)

Standing in the way of such things does nobody any good, Ultimately, saying that resources could be better used elsewhere, is a pointless arguement, people should work on what they want to (again assuming there is a desire for such things) as just like DMs, the builders, scripters and coders are all volunteers.

[mogonk]

the concept that adding adding new classes is a negative is sort of silly, assuming they're made appropriately and balanced, and we have folk that want to work on them

Absolutely. I'm not saying there's a downside, I'm saying that there's no upside.

If somebody out there really wants to devote time to coding this and makes a final product that Standards can get on board with, why not add it? I won't argue against it at that point. I'm simply telling the hypothetical person who might do that not to waste his or her hypothetical time....whether they listen or not is entirely out of my hands.

It only really makes sense to claim that resource management isn't an issue if the volunteers in question make their decisions in a vacuum, without looking at community demand and consensus, and we know that's not the case.

Standing in the way of such things does nobody any good

Au contraire, pointing out that a proposed addition doesn't really add much may deter people from devoting resources to it. Which would result in them devoting resources elsewhere. Which would be good.

[Keryn]

here's a fun alternative....

lets scrap all the classes, and replace them with the Unearthed arcana 'warrior, expert and spellcaster'

the concept that adding adding new classes is a negative is sort of silly, assuming they're made appropriately and balanced, and we have folk that want to work on them, there shouldn't be an issue.

All character concepts could be made (actually easier) using the warrior, expert and spellcaster generic classes, as things like evasion etc are feats instead of class abilities.

that said, I'm clearly (and always have been) in favour of adding new content if there is
a) a desire for it
b) someone willing to work on it (or better yet, someone that WANTS to work on it)
c) we take a little time to ensure it's not broken (i.e. it's balanced)

Standing in the way of such things does nobody any good, Ultimately, saying that resources could be better used elsewhere, is a pointless arguement, people should work on what they want to (again assuming there is a desire for such things) as just like DMs, the builders, scripters and coders are all volunteers.

X10000

I'm still to understand how is it bad to have more content and more options for our players. Once ALFA accepted to have PRCs, I think the only issue we need to pay attention to, is balance issues obviously, and please not get paranoid...

If someone can explain to me how having more options if we have the people to get the content IG will be a bad thing for ALFA please do... In the end it is up to each player to make their own decisions and build his own PC according to what he wishes if it stays within our guidelines. PRCs are meant to add the prestige factor, otherwise we could simply use the base classes...

Even if a PRC narrows down paths, if the players wish to RP such a concept why not? Not to forget that since we are all different it is our RP ultimately that will make PCs different, even if mechanics wise they look similar.

I think to every single prestige class we have submitted as a possibility I could present a combo os base classes that would RP wise do the trick... but it wouldn't be the same thing!!! After all if you want a Mystic Theurge, just roll a PC with wizard/cleric levels... if you want a loremaster, just roll up a wizard focused in knowledge skills, why do we even need a PRC for silver knights and the like... This sort of argument does stick with me...

EDIT: Worth to mention mogonk that it is precisely, Blind who volunteered to script the PRCs for us. So he is basically asking. If I can and want and will do it, why people keep bringing this as an issue. Its his time... and probably one of the few ways he has to help with something he knows how to do, and can be a true asset for ALFA. More ir never bad, more options, more fun.

[mogonk]

EDIT: Worth to mention mogonk that it is precisely, Blind who volunteered to script the PRCs for us. So he is basically asking. If I can and want and will do it, why people keep bringing this as an issue. Its his time... and probably one of the few ways he has to help with something he knows how to do, and can be a true asset for ALFA. More ir never bad, more options, more fun.

OK. And if this particular concept is for some reason really compelling to him, so be it. I can think of a dozen prestige classes that would add more to the game. Hell, I can think of plenty of base classes that would add more. Since resources are finite, at some point it becomes a choice between one class and another, and there are a lot of other ideas that should be in line before this one.

[Keryn]

mogonk suggest them Blind stated more then once he will help with whichever, after standards approval.

So whichever comes if doable, he will probably tackle it. I cannot speak for him though, but this is what he said over and over. You seem to have nice ideas, spell them out, suggest some more PRCs and their benefits and lets see if they are doable IG. Why not?

[Blindhamsterman]

Au contraire, pointing out that a proposed addition doesn't really add much may deter people from devoting resources to it. Which would result in them devoting resources elsewhere. Which would be good.

wrong... people will work on what they want to, you say not to work on it, perhaps they listen, doesn't mean they'll work on something else. Infact being told somethings a bad idea, simply demotivates folk to do stuff, which is clearly a bad thing, but hey ho, I've seen the amount of negative on many things of late, I guess this attitude shouldn't come as a suprise (from anyone)

so, seems i should've read on...

OK. And if this particular concept is for some reason really compelling to him, so be it. I can think of a dozen prestige classes that would add more to the game. Hell, I can think of plenty of base classes that would add more. Since resources are finite, at some point it becomes a choice between one class and another, and there are a lot of other ideas that should be in line before this one.

I've said I'll work on ANY PRCS (and I guess base classes too if someone suggested them). I've also said that while there is one (and only one) I personally have an interest in these days, if it doesn't go in for a good reason (we'll see) I'd still most likely work on other classes as well.

But yes, put forward your suggestions for other classes you'd like to see added, perhaps once the first batch have had decisions made on them your suggestions might see a chance at being put in as well.

Personally I'm interested to see how one prc or base class is more justified than another if both are able to be balanced.

[Ithildur]

Au contraire, pointing out that a proposed addition doesn't really add much may deter people from devoting resources to it. Which would result in them devoting resources elsewhere. Which would be good.

wrong... people will work on what they want to, you say not to work on it, perhaps they listen, doesn't mean they'll work on something else. Infact being told somethings a bad idea, simply demotivates folk to do stuff, which is clearly a bad thing, but hey ho, I've seen the amount of negative on many things of late, I guess this attitude shouldn't come as a suprise (from anyone)

This seems spot on to me. ALFA/nwn2 is not a job. You simply can't direct people to stop 'wasting time' working on what they are very interested in and instead work on something they've no interest in doing. Trying to do that will be demotivating, as is shutting down efforts/ideas which potentially might enhance a gameplay experience outside of a narrow scope which may be in danger of stagnating.

I'm not entirely supportive of prioritizing another non canonic cobbled gish class (after the beating that Bladesinger took in the discussions) when an EK with multiple Ftr lvls would probably fit the bill for most folks (I know EK is terribly bland), but regardless, I can't support a statement that might discourage creativity and people's volunteer efforts.

Tell people to go ahead and work on their stuff, see how it works out (honestly, not just making empty promises), and encourage them to also contribute with areas 'elsewhere' that may indeed need prioritizing.

[t-ice]

Let me answer this question, posed in a different form several times :

Why should we introduce yet another narrowing-down PrC filter, when the allotment of levels in more general classes provides a nigh unlimited possibility of different concepts?

The whole point is to provide for a wider range of generic options. Just how many fighter5/wizard4 have there been (or ranger/sorc or ...)? It fits the description "generic fighter that can cast spells", but it's horribly underpowered so as to make the combination all but unfeasible. EK is different because being able to cast 3rd level spells is already a relatively high-level caster in the low-level setting.

The idea is a generic class in-between fighter and wizard, wonderfully bland just like the EK. Then the class could, on our engine, be RPd for a number of the phletora of canon "arcane sword" classes. Most of those are narrow and specific paths and stories. Not unlike the EK, but for cases when EK is far too heavy on the caster side. In fact it is the very Bladesinger that brought up the need for such a class. But since we can only add in a handful of classes in a balanced manner we need a balanced blank canvas for each player to RP what colors are desired.

So while existing class combinations provide all the possible combinations, the point is which of the combinations that make RP-sense in FR are mechanistically sensible. And the idea was to bring one such combination, with numerous different RP incarnations, to be feasible. It isn't supposed to be an exact match to anyone's personal luv! class from canon, but it can make many such to be a feasible RP (Yes, perhaps even the Bladesinger, at least for the players who can let go of "all or nothing" mentality).

As a suggestion on what canon to base the class on, Spellsword was brought up when Bladesinger was discussed.

[t-ice]

Split this topic in two, for the two classes.

For what it's worth, personally I think the civilized skill-bitch class would add more widely to the game than this.

[Veilan]

High-BAB, casting progression every 2nd level, some special abilities related to fighting while casting arcane.

Sounds like EK, where you substitute every 2nd EK level for a martial one. Fighter preferably, but any works, really.

It just seems like a solution to a non-existing problem.

I am slightly more in favour of the civilised base class, but I do not really see much necessity, and there are some concerns with able learner, for instance.

[t-ice]

High-BAB, casting progression every 2nd level, some special abilities related to fighting while casting arcane.

Sounds like EK, where you substitute every 2nd EK level for a martial one. Fighter preferably, but any works, really.

True, the progression is essentially the same, but the requirements are completely different. If you could get into EK with, say

Martial weapon profs
Able to cast 1st level spells
Able to cast 3rd level spells OR bab +5
+ some skills and feats potentially to balance

then the class proposed (say, based on canon Spellsword) would indeed not provide anything novel much for a PC path. The 3rd level spell requirement makes the EK a martial-y mage variant, which is different from a mage-y warrior variant. This is the first thing noted about the suggestion and why it does add something that isn't in already.

The statement opposite to the above, that what the class represents is effectively an option already, has been stated several times in this thread, but not reasoned once against the background given in the original suggestion:
1) Multiclass physical/{wiz/sorc} is gimped to not a feasible option
2) EK is wizard first because of 3rd level spells, here looking for physical first.

I get there's not much support for it, and so be it. However, so far the only reasonable argument against seems "Not much demand for the niche, or desire to do the tech work", which is fair enough as even myself I have stated I have no immediate desire to play such a PC. And we had only one person to express personal interest. It seems somewhat odd, though, considering there was significant interest to Bladesinger, that a general way to help RP that path, and other similar, holds no interest. There's no way to know either way, of course, until it's an actual option to take. But the possibility of interest alone is certainly not much of an imperative to act on.