An open question...

[Regas]

Thanks everyone for the input on this issue. One finial example I'll cite as also maybe a less obvious nerfing of the rogue is the addition of the able learner feat. While this appears to be a core PnP feat (though from where I'm not sure, it's not in my PHB), it is supposed to be limited to humans. It may not seem like an obvious nerf of the rogue but the skill is extremely common among pc builds (as I dm I noticed 80% of the pcs have the skill).

The issue is that with this feat everyone can open up skills normally reserved for rogues. It greatly encourages builds with one level of rogue at first level. These strategies combined with the ability to now have four classes (also not PnP?) means players can build complex combinations of classes pursuing PrCs while still having the ability to detect traps, open locks, hide and add a range of secondary skills once only found with rogues.

Thus, the need or even sensibility for developing pure rogues is missing within the NWN2 platform, nerfing the purer form of the class because you no longer need to take rogue levels to access a significant part of the class.

Again, I'm not suggesting we rewrite NWN2, but lets have some context as to how far from the core rules we've gotten before we nerf rogues and other non-combat classes in the name of PnP.

I have more examples like max hit points, movement rate and Able Learner but hopefully the point is made. Lets think before we nerf in the name of PnP.

[Blindhamsterman]

in PNP you can take as many different classes as your DM is happy with, there's no rule on it (many builds found online make use of as many as 5 in my experience)

as to the rogues not being so important because others can use the same skills... sadly its true in PNP too, a pure rogue is for the most part not needed, infact in PNP its even worse due to feats that allow certain combinations of classes to still give full sneak attack damage and other benefits usually only in a single class rogue.

I do think able learner should be made human only and opened up to any level though... closer to pnp

[danielmn]

I on the other hand, would ban able learner and luck of heroes outright, simply because they are cheese and by association, I deem anyone taking them cheese. Velveeta cheese. With cheese on top.

[Blindhamsterman]

all able learner does is represent a characters ease in learning new skills, I wouldn't say it's cheesy, probably better than a lot of other feats out there, true. But then, there was likely a reason it was human only:- It was designed to fit the concept Wizards had for humans in 3.5, quick to learn new skills...

Luck of Heroes... I'm inclined to agree with you about.

[Regas]

I on the other hand, would ban able learner and luck of heroes outright, simply because they are cheese and by association, I deem anyone taking them cheese. Velveeta cheese. With cheese on top.

Velveeta does not meet canon standards for cheese. Velveeta is not a real cheese but rather processed cheese food, and therefore should be removed from use as a declarative cheese title, and is in-fact 'cheesy' in as much as fake cheese can be cheese. Its smooth consistent texture is certainly an exploit as no cheese should melt so well in a microwave. Please refer to the more traditional cheddar, Swiss or Limburger, if you need something really smelly.

[kiyoti]

+1 regas

[danielmn]

I on the other hand, would ban able learner and luck of heroes outright, simply because they are cheese and by association, I deem anyone taking them cheese. Velveeta cheese. With cheese on top.

Velveeta does not meet canon standards for cheese. Velveeta is not a real cheese but rather processed cheese food, and therefore should be removed from use as a declarative cheese title, and is in-fact 'cheesy' in as much as fake cheese can be cheese. Its smooth consistent texture is certainly an exploit as no cheese should melt so well in a microwave. Please refer to the more traditional cheddar, Swiss or Limburger, if you need something really smelly.

And that is why it is the cheesiest cheese out there.

[AcadiusLost]

For what it's worth, while Able Learner does allow easier investment in traditional rogue type skills by other classes, the max ranks by level are still capped compared to an appropriate-classed PC. So, while it means those skills aren't the exclusive domain of rogues/bards, it does mean that the traditional class is going to be WELL ahead in ranks on anything they've fully invested in as time goes on.

Skill points themselves are also pretty limiting for non-rogues, so I'm not sure the problem is quite as bad as perceived. The skilled classes are still king when it comes to skills.

[Zelknolf]

I would think that having content that allows roguey rogues (and not ftr/ rogs, not wiz/ rogs, not rangers) to shine would go a long way toward making the class seem more viable. Getting the full compliment of rogue skills takes more skill points than anyone but rogues have; putting things together to make parties either unable to progress or having to be on the bad end of some sort of nastiness if no one in the group has the skill would make rogues handier than Batman's utility belt.

'cuz rogues win by skills and sneak attack in PnP. Skills are in. Sneak attack is more powerful than PnP (as concealment does not protect against it). Setting traps in PnP takes weeks and costs your right arm and your first born. We just happen to have a lot of content that is uncomplicated terrain and direct fights. Which rogues add nothing to and suck at, respectively.

[dergon darkhelm]

I would think that having content that allows roguey rogues...... to shine would go a long way toward making the class seem more viable. Getting the full compliment of rogue skills takes more skill points than anyone but rogues have; putting things together to make parties either unable to progress or having to be on the bad end of some sort of nastiness if no one in the group has the skill would make rogues handier than Batman's utility belt.
We just happen to have a lot of content that is uncomplicated terrain and direct fights. Which rogues add nothing to and suck at, respectively.

Bingo!

ALFA in NWN2 has hardly any traps to be disabled. Hardly any locks to be picked. Hardly any doors with a DC to open (and WAY too many that are "a specific key is required").

Rogue content in both statics and DM events is the answer....is the hardest answer since it requires lots of work....but it *is* the answer.

[Lucifer]

I would think that having content that allows roguey rogues...... to shine would go a long way toward making the class seem more viable. Getting the full compliment of rogue skills takes more skill points than anyone but rogues have; putting things together to make parties either unable to progress or having to be on the bad end of some sort of nastiness if no one in the group has the skill would make rogues handier than Batman's utility belt.
We just happen to have a lot of content that is uncomplicated terrain and direct fights. Which rogues add nothing to and suck at, respectively.

Bingo!

ALFA in NWN2 has hardly any traps to be disabled. Hardly any locks to be picked. Hardly any doors with a DC to open (and WAY too many that are "a specific key is required").

Rogue content in both statics and DM events is the answer....is the hardest answer since it requires lots of work....but it *is* the answer.

+1 Rogues have little Reason not To Multi-class the way things are presently. IC..they wouold get bored or discouraged..No Lock..or impossible lock..Traps..

[Veilan]

There are certainly two sides of the "balance" equation - class design, and ALFA design... combined by the matrix that a CRPG-PW is. I know there are a lot of frustrations compared to a 1 DM, 4 player table game - where policing is easy, corrections to the game world take only a word and a pencil stroke to enforce, there is no anonymity and less animosity, and everyone gets about equal attention.

Sadly our beast is far more complicated, but we are well aware that, as a wiser dutchman than me put it, currently we have: "ALFA - clerics r00l, rogues dr00l."

Cheers,

[Mirabai]

Velveeta is cheeze with a Z. Replacing the S with the Z succinctly delineates velveeta from 'real' cheese.

[Mord]

I somehow doubt we have the resources to playtest all the changes we make to an otherwise somewhat balanced gameplay experience before we implement them.

[oldgrayrogue]

I retired my level 9 rogue build Corio in large part out of boredom and frustration at playing a rogue. I basically got tired of playing a warrior when I wanted to play a rogue, and just rolled up a warrior instead. If not for the DMs who supported him over those levels (Regas included) I would have retired him long before that. If not for the 2 levels of fighter I took early in his progression, I am convinced in hindsight he would have died even sooner. The only rogue skills that were ever useful were those for scouting and combat. Without a DM, open lock, disable trap etc were useless. There is an interesting use for one other skill that is meta so I won't discuss it, but the climate and support simply did not exist on the server to enable rogues who discover it to flourish.

There was content added to TSM at some point that addressed this at the suggestion of myself and others wishing more rogue content. In the static "dungeon" areas locked and trapped containers would spawn with loot that would get broken to useless if the container was bashed. There were a few issues with the trap DCs early on but they were remedied. Wynna scripted it I believe. As far as i know it is no longer in the mod, and the scripts are not implemented on our other live servers. I have no idea why it was removed and would love to see it added back in. The work is done, by a very talented scripter.