Crafting questions

[robokat]

hi everyone.

so i've been poking around alfa a little bit, and i've really been enjoying the whole experience. i've come to the point, though, where i need a couple questions answered regarding crafting. someone already told me that crafting is DM assisted... and that you have to RP out your crafting and send a log of it to a DM or something like that.

now... ashlee is an apprentice alchemist. her story is that she's training under a more experienced alchemist, who is currently teaching her some things. as such, i gave her some points in craft (alchemy), and like one point in profession. obviously, she's still low level. but anyways.. my questions are as follows:

1. what sort of alchemy items would an apprentice alchemist be making, that would be able to justify the point in profession? obviously it has to be something that would be somewhat functional that she might be able to sell to other PCs and stuff.

2. as far as crafting is concerned, is the system basically identical to the one outlined in the D&D 3.5e player's handbook? like, are the items/DCs provided there pretty much what i can expect? the thing that seems a bit awkward is that the prices in the D&D PHB are in silver, whereas in NWN2, the only available currency is gold. so how does that affect things, if this is the case?

3. not being an alchemist myself, i'm not sure how to RP out the creation of specific alchemy items. *does* the crafting have to be RPed out? or can it just be considered done in the background, sort of off-camera? (like when i'm not playing her, she's either sleeping or working?)

4. if the crafting has to be RPed out, where would i go to RP it? if she's making volatile substances, especially, that's not the sort of thing she'd just do out in the middle of the street, or even in the middle of a crowded tavern. she'd prolly be using some sort of lab setup.

5. if the crafting has to be RPed out, how do i retrieve the logs of it being RPed out? i've never done anything like that before. and copy/pasting from the dialogue box doesn't seem to work.

any further advice on the subject would be appreciated, thanks.

[hollyfant]

someone already told me that crafting is DM assisted... and that you have to RP out your crafting and send a log of it to a DM or something like that.

Something like that, yes.
Crafting is supposrted on a "per DM" basis, so the first thing you need to do is contact your local DM and detail your plans.

1. what sort of alchemy items would an apprentice alchemist be making, that would be able to justify the point in profession?

As a rule of thumb, Craft is about making stuff, and Profession about earning a living. So I'm guessing as single point in Profession(alchemist) qualifies your PC as someone who realises potions shouldn't smell of brimstone if they are to sell well.

2. as far as crafting is concerned, is the system basically identical to the one outlined in the D&D 3.5e player's handbook?

The system is whatever the DM says it is, although as a rule they go with the PnP rules. The price of the final product has to match our pricing standards, anything else is subject to the whims of the DM team.

3. not being an alchemist myself, i'm not sure how to RP out the creation of specific alchemy items. *does* the crafting have to be RPed out?

Yes. Usually anyway. Crafting is not intended to get things you haven't found in the shops, it exists to allow players to flesh out their character concepts. If you don't want to RP alchemy, then why play an alchemist?

4. if the crafting has to be RPed out, where would i go to RP it?

Commonly crafting PCs contact a local crafter, and apprentice themselves. This would give a person access to all the tools of the trade, as well as ingredients. Ask your DM.

5. if the crafting has to be RPed out, how do i retrieve the logs of it being RPed out?

Okay, here goes:

• Find "nwn2player.ini in your My Documents\Neverwinter Nights 2 directory.
• Add ClientChatLogging=1 under the [Game Options] header.

That was the easy part. To actually find the logs is a bit more tricky. They're in \Documents and Settings\your_user_name_here\Local Settings\Temp\NWN2\LOGS and get overwritten every time you start the game.

any further advice on the subject would be appreciated, thanks.

Talk to your DM. And find NPCs who could help you IC. And watch out with the Sovereign Glue!

[Ithildur]

Can we sticky this somewhere for the sake of new players?

[Curmudgeon]

How to log your chat stickied here.

[danielmn]

General Crafting rules for BG Stickied here...

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 42&t=43921

Could probably apply to both servers.

[robokat]

If you don't want to RP alchemy, then why play an alchemist?

mainly because it fits the character concept, and i like the thought of her making alchemy stuffs. i mean.. just because someone's RPing a character with, say... a background as a miner.. that doesn't necessarily mean that they want to toddle off for a RL day to RP their character toiling in the mines.

plus... ashlee's the one training to be an alchemist, not me. she has a different sort of education, so she knows what's involved in that sort of thing. i, as a player, don't have the same sort of knowledge to draw from in terms of making a believable post regarding mixing together ingredients. for instance, i don't know how to make an acid vial. i dunno what's involved in making a sunrod. but just because i don't have that knowledge IRL, should that exclude me from wanting to play an alchemist?

and besides, "apprentice alchemist" is just ashlee's day job. when i'm out RPing her, i like to RP her outside of work, in her free time. it seems kind of weird to lock the character up and make her unavailable to play for days at a time. especially since game time passes so much faster than RL time. i like to assume that she's off doing work-related stuff when i'm not playing her.

we don't usually RP our characters sleeping, going to the bathroom, or doing other mundane details of their day. that stuff is just usually assumed to be done off camera. that's kind of why i assumed that crafting could be similarly done.

not trying to be argumentative. certain aspects of that system just don't make sense to me. it's like making a job out of your play time. sorry this rant went on for so long!

[Ithildur]

and besides, "apprentice alchemist" is just ashlee's day job. when i'm out RPing her, i like to RP her outside of work, in her free time. it seems kind of weird to lock the character up and make her unavailable to play for days at a time. especially since game time passes so much faster than RL time. i like to assume that she's off doing work-related stuff when i'm not playing her.

we don't usually RP our characters sleeping, going to the bathroom, or doing other mundane details of their day. that stuff is just usually assumed to be done off camera. that's kind of why i assumed that crafting could be similarly done.

not trying to be argumentative. certain aspects of that system just don't make sense to me. it's like making a job out of your play time. sorry this rant went on for so long!

I have to agree with some of this; we aren't required to RP out important 'downtime' activities which are really vital activities such as eating and drinking, without which you will die eventually. We have 'downtime' resting in effect via scripting which would seem to reinforce the idea that the majority of the time logged in is meant to be spent RPing/interacting with the world/other players/DMs, not sitting around while logged in and kept from being able to participate. Why not consider 'offline' time as at least part of the time spent crafting?

Are people really expected to log in and sit there for RL 2 weeks in order to craft the more powerful/expensive items? In order to try to craft something powerful to try and deal with a threat in a plot, you potentially have to miss the plot...

[edit: I see there's clarification that you can represent a day spent crafting with 30 minutes of RPing crafting logged on, so it's not as insane as I thought, but still, taking a PC out of action for 16 real life days, which may mean more realisticly a month for people who can log in every other day...

No wonder some folks are never around to RP with.

[hollyfant]

just because i don't have that knowledge IRL, should that exclude me from wanting to play an alchemist?

No, it shouldn't. On the other hand, if the mere thought of violence sends shivers through my spine, could I really have fun playing an assassin?
The answer to that of course, is "of course".

It's good you're challenging yourself, but it's a problem you took on in full knowledge of what you'd get into. We can help you with the canonical information: "Alchemy is not explicitly laid out in the D&D rules", the ALFA rules: "ask a DM, and check the server stickies", but beyond that you're on your own. What does the wikipedia have to say about alchemy? And how much do you remember of your school chemistry?

i like to assume that she's off doing work-related stuff when i'm not playing her.

Now this I can agree with. While I wouldn't like DMs to hand out all sorts of exotic items, just because a player said "my PC made those while I was offline", I do feel that spending your precious playing time emoting at a kiln is no way to play. Unless you want to play that way.

Why not argue with the DM who told you this though? Or send in a story about how your PC was crafting - those have been awarded with XP before, so why not with items?

Make suggestions. If what you propose makes more sense than the existing rules, we'll adopt your ideas in an instance. But you have to go the extra mile beyond saying what you think is wrong about the current setup.

How can we improve the current crafting rules? What's missing? Which rules should be dumped, and which added? How can we prevent abuse, and make sure the DMs spend their time DMing and the players playing?

not trying to be argumentative. certain aspects of that system just don't make sense to me. it's like making a job out of your play time. sorry this rant went on for so long!

Never be afraid to rant; arguments tend to produce the most balanced, well-considered proposals. So by all means, argue! It's how we get things done here anyway.

Are people really expected to log in and sit there for RL 2 weeks in order to craft the more powerful/expensive items? In order to try to craft something powerful to try and deal with a threat in a plot, you potentially have to miss the plot...

I know some players actually enjoy it, and I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of their own fun. It's not my cup o' tea though.

[fasthd97]

I havent been here very long so i probably shouldnt throw my two coppers in but isnt paying for the feats and skillpoints enough really? They could take other feats and skills instead.They also have to pay the xp costs which is pretty big for anything worth making really.I think they should be allowed to spend time rping crafting if they want to but shouldnt be required to do so but im not into crafting so maybe some people that craft should throw in thier opinions.

[danielmn]

The rules I myself adopted for BG when HDM came straight from the rulebook, as we have no set crafting rules chisled into stone as of yet. As for "dedicated time" spent on the crafting, there are no set rules within the rulebooks, so a case could be made for those that want it done behind the scenes rather than incorporating it into what your PC does while IG. The point to consider is....can the crafting take place anywhere? Crafting a bow can happen in almost anyplace, given you have the right tools. Crafting a suit of armour? Not so much. So how does one justify trampsing about, logging off at different locales in which what you need to craft is not available, and saying Hey, I crafted all this while I was logged off?

My main concern as an HDM at the time was that the items made be reflective of peoples time and locale, so that someone wouldn't come up to me in 5 months and say "Hey, um, I've spent all this time out of game, can I have a suit of mithril fullplate?" whilst trampsing all across the server engaging themselves in all types of activities which would prevent them, either by time or locale, to craft anything at all.

Hignar comes to mind.......


Now, as a crafting PC, I can say I've excluded myself from many events because my own pc was in the middle of crafting a big project for someone, and making some bank on it in the longrun. I've spent many an hour rping the crafting of armour, many an hour as a person studying the principles behind forging something from metal (that's just my inquisitive nature). THough it's kept me away from some action...I don't believe that necessarily a bad thing. I find the pill of "I took these feats, or these skills, I want to make things in the off time, AND get paid good coin for my offtime work" a bit hard to swallow. It gives an unfair advantage to those that do craft over those that don't, allowing them to bank free coin that other's can't bank while doing little if nothing other than taking feats or skills to get it.

Now, I understand an alchemist wouldn't be making too grand of an income through the crafting of said alchemical items, you have to look at crafting in a broader context...where an alchemist wouldn't make an enourmous amount of money in their profession...a weapon or armoursmith certainly could. So you have to structure the rules of crafting around the entirety of crafting, and not just one subsect. For an example.... my PC could easily craft a mithril chain shirt without the possibilty of failing a roll in 3 real life weeks time, garnering a 650-700 profit from it. This is a LOT of coin considering the low wealth of ALFA...I would think we'd want this gain represented in RP terms, and not just I did that while logged off.

Now personally, I feel the detriment established that you have to be in stasis in order to craft keeps the population of crafters low, thereby maintaining the low wealth, low magic servers that Alfa is generally known for. If the detriment were removed, there would be little reason for any player not to pick up some form of crafting, weather that be through magic feats or labor skillset, and making items for themselves, their friend players, and selling items to PC's that they generally know at an advanced rate of what it is now. Pretty soon I think we'd have PC made items flying all over the place (moreso than we do now) destabalizing our standards as far as wealth.

Then the question has to be asked, How far do we take not rping crafting? Should I just be able to walk up to said DM and say, I spent the last 12 months making some adamantine full plate, nevermind where I got the adamantine from? I think a certain amount of rp need happen, especially in the cases of things made out of special materials, in order for the items to be made. Just some things to consider.

[darrenhfx]

For the alchemist question in particular, this could possibly be used as background for the master alchemist NPC.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Alchemist_(3.5e_Class)

You can always control the sort of products being produced by keeping the master craftsperson at a reasonable level and hopefully at the same time allow for some interesting RPing opportunities.

*edit* Link sorted.

[danielmn]

great link.

Considering it has no info whatsoever in it, it leaves the possibilities endless!!!!

[robokat]

*snip*
Then the question has to be asked, How far do we take not rping crafting? Should I just be able to walk up to said DM and say, I spent the last 12 months making some adamantine full plate, nevermind where I got the adamantine from? I think a certain amount of rp need happen, especially in the cases of things made out of special materials, in order for the items to be made. Just some things to consider.

i do think that crafting needs to have a certain level of communication with the DMs, no differently from in a PnP game. if a DM decides that there's no way that a PC could have access to a sufficient supply of adamantine, then there's no way they're going to be able to make an adamantine suit of armor. i mean, i was told that we'd have to contact a DM for what we want crafted anyway, as well as put in the RP time.

it's just that right now, i have no real desire to sit in one spot in game typing for a half hour every day "ashlee works on making fire". which is basically what my posts would amount to, maybe with slightly different wording every second post or so. i mean, the fun part of the game for me is the questing/adventuring aspect as well as the interaction with other players and DMs. the alchemy thing is, really, just her day job. and i always try to log her out in Silverymoon when i'm done playing her, because i always say that she ends up going back to her master's workshop at the end of her adventures.

some people enjoy researching how things work, and using that to fuel their RP. and that's fine, that's perfectly acceptable. i just feel no real desire to learn the alchemy trade IRL, just because my character is an alchemist. XD does it interest me? sure, i like the thought of ashlee handling potentially dangerous chemicals, given how random and hyperactive she normally is. but alchemy interests me mainly in the sense of "making things to set other things on fire", not the "i wish i knew how it worked" sense.

i still plan to use her background as an apprentice alchemist, but i sort of feel that aside from maybe working as a knowledge roll, those points i used are now merely "RP points", with no real in-game purpose. i play the game as a diversion from real life, not to get a second job in a fantasy world. XD

i mean, you did raise several valid points. you want to keep wealth low, you don't want everyone to be a crafter, you don't want people to be able to craft ridiculous items. that, i understand. right now though, i view ashlee's craft as more of an um... education? basically, i see her master giving her a task list of things that she has to make. homework, basically. so really, that puts full control over what ashlee can and can't make into the hands of the DMs. could she go off and research the recipes for other things on her own? prolly, yes. but once again, it would be up to the DMs to determine what she could or couldn't learn the recipes for. i don't consider myself much of a power player myself, though. i think she'd prolly just make fun stuff that amuses me, more than anything. like alchemist fire, acid vials, sunrods, thunderstones, tanglefoot bags, i think someone suggested sovereign glue.

and i should reiterate.. i'm not looking for her to be like mass producing stuff for retail to suddenly flood the market with. i'm perfectly happy with a slow production rate, and i think she'd use a lot of her things for herself.

i think i'd be happy even just sending in the occasional short story or short post or whatever, to the DMs, illustrating some of the work she's done, or the things she's learning. i think one of the things that i'd find the hardest about doing the crafting in-game is that i don't really know where i'd do it. currently, i have her living with a practicing alchemist named Sasha Windspinner. and i've just been saying she's been using her workspace. i've sort of left her master's house off-camera, since i know it can't be added in-game, and because from what i've heard, Silverymoon is a pretty big city. so i didn't figure another random alchemist living somewhere unspecified within it would make much of a difference. let me know if i'm wrong in that assumption.

i think i've kind of rambled off-topic somewhere. i do that sometimes. but um.. i dunno. in conclusion, i'd hope to be able to work out some kind of a compromise, i guess is my main point. i'd like to participate in crafting, but i don't have the luxury of time that i can just be sitting around online playing by myself making pretend items. if a compromise is not possible or not feasible, i guess i'll just pretend like she's made the stuff she makes, while working in her lab with Sasha, but um... Sasha does all the selling, and therefore keeps all the profit, and Ashlee's work just pays for her room and board. or something.

i should restate that i'm not trying to be confrontational. i'm just trying to work through my options. again, sorry for the long post.

[Ithildur]

Dan, I hear you regarding the theoretical potential for abuse; someone showing up out of nowhere and saying "hey my pc was really working on crafting this artifact for the past 5 months while offline" is obviously ridiculous, and if I were a DM my response would be to raise an eyebrow and query whether that effected his time/choices while ingame at all; ie if say he was part of an extended campaign/plot where his PC was in the underdark for a stretch of weeks with no access to a suitable place to craft, no dice, that time would have to be subtracted from the required time to craft.

But otherwise, from the DMG p. 283 regarding magic item creation (someone else can maybe comment on mundane crafting via Craft:x skill):

The caster works for 8 hours each day. he cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. A character who takes a break from item creation to adventure should keep track of how many days of work remain on that item.

In other words, it's not an all consuming process that requires the caster/crafter to do nothing but craft and basic functions for the required time; nor is it required that the x days required be consecutive. It's really not meant to completely disrupt the career of an adventurer or prevent being able to have regular interactions aside from the 8 hours per day; ie net affect is it slows you down SOME, but it should not ultimately prohibit someone from logging in and participating in things at all for large chunks of RL time. If someone is really into RPing that their PC is so dedicated to crafting that they choose to isolate themselves and do nothing but eat/sleep and work on the item for days on end, that's great and maybe they should even get some kind of a bonus to their checks or results (that's what Breunor did iirc while forging Aegis Fang, which is clearly an exceptional item not the norm), but such should not be a requirement nor a norm; making it mandatory to have crafters keep their butts glued to their crafting stools 24/7 is not healthy for ALFA gameplay.

Examining the above except, my conclusion is that crafting is not meant to keep people from playing the game for long stretches; this is all the more so in a PW like ours. The cost for magic item crafting is paid through 8 hours/day, feats and gold/xp (which, aside from the obvious goal of gameplay rule balance, I see as an abstraction of time/energy taken away from whatever helps you to improve your class abilities and directed towards the crafting), the latter two being much harder to come by in ALFA compared to both average pnp campaigns and most NWN PWs. It's not meant to keep someone in stasis like period where they cannot participate in any activity but crafting for days and weeks on end, which btw is much costlier in a PW than pnp where the rest of the players often 'wait' for the crafter to finish his work by taking care of non adventuring business. If it was meant to be this way, the rules would require spending something like 16 hours per day crafting, not 8. As is, a character really should have no trouble hanging out in a pub discussing how to save the world with his companions (which btw takes us 8 hours IG time just to exchange greetings due to the fast timescale) or participating in a simple task that lasts < 8 hours, return (teleport or word of recall makes this even easier for high lvls) to his sanctum, rest for 8, and craft for 8, pay the xp and gold. The rules of DnD magic and crafting allow for this.

Make it a compromise perhaps: for each day required by the item, you need to log on and RP something appropriate/unable to participating in non crafting activities for 20, 30 minutes (along the lines of Dan's ruling from the BG crafting thread) real time. After the 20/30 minutes are up, you can go play; log the RPed crafting and/or take screenshots of the time started/time finished (via pc tools 'clock') if need be, and you're done. Repeat next time you log in, OR with DM permission for situations that might require urgency (ie the campaign requires you to craft that item asap to save the world), you can stay logged on and wait an IG 24 hours (which flies by extremely fast with current timescale) doing other things, then come back and spend another 20/30 minutes crafting, etc. But note that spending the next login session/letting an IG 24 hours pass doing something else (adventuring, tavern RP) other than crafting does not ruin the current project, it simply means you'll have to put in the next 20/30 minutes another time to get it credited towards the total number of days required for the item.

And obviously, participating in extended continuous campaigns/plots that leave you away from your crafting environment means the time while in that situation cannot be counted for the required time.

Crafting is a valid and vital part of the DnD experiences and especially 3.5e ruleset; sure it can be abused just like many other facets of the game, but that doesn't mean we should aim to discourage it for all but the most die hard folks who are willing to put up with not playing the game for weeks in order to get something done. I mean, intuitively it does not make sense; do we want to force people to roleplay by not playing the game for extended periods of time? While I understand cheaply handing over artifacts to PCs is not what we want, there are some fundamental elements to this way of thinking that concerns me, aside from the fact that it's not how crafting works in 3.5

[danielmn]

Good find Ith. Make it 30 minutes per IG day (which is what I had those on BG doing in the first place), and then allow the change in stasis to active again (The change from what I did), sounds fine to me. Push it forward to the powers that be.

Just as a side note, I never forced consequetive days on any crafter either...don't know where that popped out of. As long as they stayed in stasis for the day they crafted, they could ramble out the next day and do whatever they pleased with the crafting unfinished.

The obvious difference in what you're looking at (crafting magic items, 1k gold a day) vrs crafting mundane items (measure in COPPER per IG day) is the drastic measure of coarse. For those crafting magical items, it's not necessarry until you get up into the really big items to spend a lot of time in the crafting. +2 strength belt? 4 IG day crafting. Set of full plate? Around 41 RL days crafting, as the time is often measure in weeks (we set 1 RL day = 1 week in crafting) instead of days for such...so it just makes more sense for stasis for mundane than crafting anything magical because of how little progress is made in mundane crafting vrs. magick crafting. The xp loss that goes along with magical crafting is the fast track detriment. Mundane crafters don't experience such, but experience a lot longer craft time for the making of an item. If a mundane crafter took a lot of time off from their projects, they might never get done (nevermind you have a playerbase waiting on items to be made).
2k +2 str object- 4 IG days
1.5k suit of plate - 41 RL days

I see little sense in making the magick crafters be in stasis.
More sense for the mundane as again, progress is usually measure in weeks, not days, though days can be measured instead of weeks. I don't think the change would necessarily affect my own playing, as the items my PC makes for other PC's are usually of an expensive nature and take a long time to make. However, the change would help others, so go for it!