Erevain wrote:i agree, make walk unseen work as invisibility (1min/level) with a number of casts per day equal to level+1 or similar. Still makes them better at doing such things than a wizard, possibly not as good as a sorc who knows invis.
So in other words, make my PC, and other warlocks into sorcerers practically, just with much more limited choices when it comes to invo....I mean spell selection.
Sorcerers with better BAB, better HP, more proficiencies (including armour) and a bunch of other nifty bonuses as they rise through the levels.
On the other hand, if cannon says they can do it at will and it lasts 24 hours each time they do it, it should just have the same restrictions that standard invisibility gain if/when it is allowed to be used once again.
Yes, invisibility has been abused by warlock PCs and is what touched off the whole examination of invisibility within the engine. A case I witnessed (not mentioning names) the warlock followed a party of pcs around, listened to their conversations close enough to hear whispers, then whispered in their ears and threatened them without any concern that the pcs could respond or react directly to the threat. Personally I don't even care much about getting a move silent roll to hear them. My high level rogue in nwn1 was able to hear invisible creatures all the time but he had to make the roll every round to keep track of them, so they popped in and out and were nearly impossible to hit--though they did give themselves away. My issue is when invis players reveal themselves and remain invisible or move in close proximity for extended periods of time with other players. CvC concerns are in my mind less important then these more subtle abuses, as CvC is rare and usually has a DM present. At the very least, once I know an invisible pc is near I should be able to request that invisible pc reset their invocation while set to hostile so I can target them. Then at least we would be somewhat in line with 3.5 rules.
Sadly, it's the Walk Unseen invocation that is making the invisibility bug awkward. The spell is just as broken, but usually doesn't last long enough (and is too expensive or scarce for repeated castings) to be that much of an issue. But the duration and availability of the Warlocks' invocation is making the matter one of concern.
Holly, you've hit the nail on the head. In the case of the spell, there is little offensive use and given the short duration it is not something I worry about being exploiting. As a 24 hour invocation it becomes an offensive tool, and with the existing bugs is easily exploited and causes grief to other players.
Regas wrote:Yes, invisibility has been abused by warlock PCs and is what touched off the whole examination of invisibility within the engine. A case I witnessed (not mentioning names) the warlock followed a party of pcs around, listened to their conversations close enough to hear whispers, then whispered in their ears and threatened them without any concern that the pcs could respond or react directly to the threat. .
That reminds me of something....I was able to attack the other warlock in that situation, due to the see the unseen ability. The other warlocks invisibility proved no detriment to my attack at all.
"Cast in his unlikely role....ill equipped to act"
Analogkid wrote:So then putting it bluntly the only issue is higher level warlocks. If thats the case, who do I talk to about getting a rebuild?
Your friendly local DM. Given the situation, I can't imagine an HDM who wouldn't agree to it.
I was able to attack the other warlock in that situation, due to the see the unseen ability. The other warlocks invisibility proved no detriment to my attack at all.
And even worse: the other warlock couldn't actually hide while being invisible, due to the bug.
Analog, I really am not directing my posts toward you, and I understand your frustration with the situation. I'm open to suggestions on how we can restore some measure of balance and playability for both Warlocks and everyone else where Walk Unseen is concerned given the engine limitations. I think it sucks too that players have built pcs around these abilities and now can't use them or might need to consider re-builds though I know you are aware of the abuses we've seen, even if you haven't caused them.
Can you think of any way to addresses these issues? I'd love to find some middle ground that doesn't nerf the invocation past usefulness or remove it altogether?
Erevain wrote:give them all a bonus to spot checks equal to the bonus to hide checks invisibility and its relatives would get?
Currently, if I cast see invisibility or blindsight, im pretty sure i can see hidden creatures (using Hide) anyway, blindsight I know definitely works that way, would have to test see invisibility and the others though.
I can attest that the see the unseen invocation allows my warlock to see others who are invisible through use of the spell, scroll/potion and invocation. I would imagine that see invisibility works as well.
"Cast in his unlikely role....ill equipped to act"
Regas wrote:Analog, I really am not directing my posts toward you, and I understand your frustration with the situation. I'm open to suggestions on how we can restore some measure of balance and playability for both Warlocks and everyone else where Walk Unseen is concerned given the engine limitations. I think it sucks too that players have built pcs around these abilities and now can't use them or might need to consider re-builds though I know you are aware of the abuses we've seen, even if you haven't caused them.
Can you think of any way to addresses these issues? I'd love to find some middle ground that doesn't nerf the invocation past usefulness or remove it altogether?
I've always thought that something that could boost Hide was the way to go...and thats what I requested to the DM who first informed me of the situation. Since, lets be honest here...we're currently only talking about a couple PC's, mine included. Do we have to come up with some grandiose fix? Why couldnt Warlocks of such level have walk unseen but simply keep it as a place holder invocation, with severe consequences if it's used. Instead the warlock could have some kind of item or thingamajig which when activated or put on can up hide to a reasonable number.
"Cast in his unlikely role....ill equipped to act"
We could perhaps even take it one step further: add Hide in Plain Sight to this widget, as well as X ranks in Hide. Because that's what Invisibility does, after all. It's powerful, but Walk Unseen was always supposed to be potent.
And with the Warlocks "taken care of", we could just pretend the problem has vanished and ignore the regular casters.
interesting idea. We leave ms alone, so players can hear the warlock unless the Warlock has a high MS. What level can a warlock qualify for this invocation? Sixth?
Regas wrote:interesting idea. We leave ms alone, so players can hear the warlock unless the Warlock has a high MS. What level can a warlock qualify for this invocation? Sixth?
6th at the earliest
"Cast in his unlikely role....ill equipped to act"
