Level 1 Start

[oldgrayrogue]

Mr. D:

I'm frankly very unconcerned about the "odds" of survival for my toons because I am not concerned with "winning" a game where there are no winners or losers if you are in it for the RP. The last part of my OP was an attempt at humor, that apparently failed.

What I am concerned about is a fulfilling RP experience, not just for me but for everyone, and I think it is worth discussing a rule that routinely results in unhappy and frustrated players. It also limits RP when you first start out for what I believe can be purely meta and OOC concerns -- namely the survival of one's low level toon. Nor is the idea of a barbarian solo fighting a single orc so outrageous to me. In fact it seems quite meta and OOC to me for a supposedly tough, violent, chaotic character to choose NOT to fight a single hostile combatant. So I would contend the choice which lead to my recent toon's death was quite IC, while the desire to prolong his life without that risk so I could play him more would have been purely OOC and metagaming. A rule which encourages meta thinking and planning for PC survival is a rule worth questioning I think. Oh, and losing what could be a really fun concept early to a crit hit really sucks, did I mention that? =)

But this post was not meant to be about me or my characters, or how I play them. The post was intended to start a discussion about the level 1 start rule. I dislike the rule for many reasons, the concerns for survival and the OOC meta thinking it can result in at low levels is one, but not the chief one. It also precludes a more robust backstory that includes a multiclass concept for example. And most importantly it confines new players to a very limited area of the server content and style of RP when they first join or roll up a new toon -- presumably when we want new players especially feeling excited with the server and not frustrated. To my thinking even a level 2 start would address all of these concerns.

The most interesting post I have read so far is Regalis' suggestion, which I am not crazy about but really got me thinking. What do people think, as an alternative to a higher level start, of the idea of a purely DM determined one time only "mulligan" between level 1-3. So in other words, one chance to continue a concept if you really do buy it either because of inexperience, doing something stupid, or playing it IC and a spawn scoring a crit. The mulligan to be applied purely in DM discretion, and based on the circumstances, with appropriate IC consequences in terms of loss of gear, XP etc.. and your toon's "survival" and the effect it has on it to be appropriately RP'd. Its off topic but worth discussing I think.

Oh and to anyone who likes to play level 1 to start, there is nothing that would force anyone to start above level 1 if they didn't want to.

EDIT: Nor would I benefit from such a "mulligan" as I have already moved on to a new toon -- just to avoid that discussion.

[mr duncan]

What I am concerned about is a fulfilling RP experience, not just for me but for everyone, and I think it is worth discussing a rule that routinely results in unhappy and frustrated players. It also limits RP when you first start out for what I believe can be purely meta and OOC concerns -- namely the survival of one's low level toon. Nor is the idea of a barbarian solo fighting a single orc so outrageous to me.

K, so the last part was humor but I took it serious. A barbarian soloing an orc isnt too crazy, the orc winning is not crazy either. I still maintain that starting at level one and having to learn patience is good for everyone, even tanks. Even violent impatient ones, the point about guys like that is that they get themselves chopped up.

So I would contend the choice which lead to my recent toon's death was quite IC, while the desire to prolong his life without that risk so I could play him more would have been purely OOC and metagaming.

I think the balancing act has to come in creation, if you are putting a lot of thought into a character you REALLY want to nurse to levels... make them at least a pinch cautious about seeing the wide world


J

[Magile]

ALFA has had the level one rule since its creation back in 1998, before NWN1 had even come out as the version we know it as (as it has gone through many changes).

12 years later, the community is still alive and the level one rule is still in place. I see no reason for it to change. vOv

[Happycrow]

OGR:

(noob alert)
With all due respect, I dont' see a lvl1 start as impeding dual-class rp in the slightest. The single character I have so far is dual-classed, and has been since before he had enough xp to get the second one. It was there in the rp, even if not in the mechanics.

I like to do things that some folks probably think is dumb, like skulk around solo when nobody else is on, just to see stuff -- I make exteriors, and I like to look at how people put them together (and every pw I do it on, folks say "you're crazy!" And then I lose the character to a complete fluke doing pretty much the same stuff everybody else does anyway. And in other news, I like pie. Hrm, where was I, oh, yeah.... ) ... it's a *lot* more risk, and therefore, a lot more exciting, to be dittybopping down the trail and bump into a goblin you can **probably** exterminate at will, but who **will** utterly extinctify your character on a crit. With a sling.

With a lvl2 or lvl3 character... and particularly for the high-bab classes... not so much. An occasional "ooo, ow" with a x3 weapon, and that's it. Rp is more or less the same, but the risk is lower, and thus the stakes are lower, thus less is on the line.... thus less excitement. Whereas a non-combat char can already level in all that much more time with your excellent and admirable rp/location-segment system.

[rorax]

Being a lowbie is hard in ALFA, no doubt about it. Your survival depends on the willingness of other players to cooperate with you and every simple task could turn dangerous if something goes wrong.

Every critter that was left on the AT and jumped on you as you moved screens can kill you with a lucky crit. Every journey between Rivermoot and High hold could get dirty with little bad luck.


Starting at higher level will /not/ fix that for everyone. If we're talking about starting at level 3, it might make some difference for your 20 con + toughness dwarven warrior who will have 48HP instead of 16, but it would not matter much for a mage or a rouge. Likely most crits that could kill them at level one, could still kill them in level 3.

Orcs with greatswords can crit near 30 HP.


I think it's better to "struggle" and try to get those 3K of XP that would get you to third level than start straight like that. I also believe most people would be more "attached" to their character if they felt they've been with them straight from the start rather than given a toon in X level.


About the bios, our current PA once told me he writes bios only if his toons reach to 3rd level. Lowbie toons tend to die often, i think it's a good guideline in general - have a rough idea what you are going to play in your head, start writing it down once you feel you've greatly increased the surviving chances of your character.(around 3rd level for warriors, maybe even higher for others?)



To sum it up....

Imagine this - how would you want to meet the woman of your dreams? work the hard way up with her and "win" her eventually, successfully passing every crisis point along the way on your own?

Or

Pick up the phone and order 5K woman from Ukraine who looks like a super model, cook, have sex, clean the house and automatically agree with everything you say?

To which one you'll feel more attached?


(P.S - before all the chicks around crucify me, the post suppose to be unisex, I used female form for the example. Also worth mentioning the OP is against any form of human trafficking to their kinds)

[oldgrayrogue]

I am all for permadeath and the excitement real risk to your PC's life instills. I just don't see the purpose to the level 1 meat grinder. Most people get their toons to level 2 really quickly anyway. Why not start there so their players don't have to be OOC afraid to leave town when just starting out, or tailoring their PC's personalities to improve their chance of survival beyond level 1? The risk of death is fun and exciting. An almost certain death if you encounter anything hostile outside of town is lame and limiting. Especially when just starting a new PC out, and I imagine for many new players just joining ALFA.

I can remember my first "testing" PC on TSM before it went live. Felled by a kick from a pony on his first walk through the woods. I know this has been the rule in ALFA forever, I guess I am just wondering why we continue to think it is desirable.

[Rotku]

I think it's better to "struggle" and try to get those 3K of XP that would get you to third level than start straight like that. I also believe most people would be more "attached" to their character if they felt they've been with them straight from the start rather than given a toon in X level.

Surely starting at level 3 (or 2) is hardly any different from people grinding statics for the first couple of levels? Don't quote me here, but from memory the first few levels people do amazingly fast, only to slow down once they reach 4 or so. Wouldn't it be better to remove that grinding and just skip straight to that level? Your old PC, as an example rorax, progressed from 1-3 in a matter of 10 days. A new PC (not naming, and not specifically selecting - just using this perrson because they're online while I'm posting this) went from 1-4 in about 2 weeks. To me, neither of those two are a struggle.

About the bios, our current PA once told me he writes bios only if his toons reach to 3rd level. Lowbie toons tend to die often, i think it's a good guideline in general - have a rough idea what you are going to play in your head, start writing it down once you feel you've greatly increased the surviving chances of your character.(around 3rd level for warriors, maybe even higher for others?)

*shrugs* Write a bio when you feel you know your PC well enough. If that just involves bullet points sent to the DM, when you get to level 5 - sure thing. Or if that involves a ten page story five months before you roll up the PC, no problems.

[Regalis]

Rp is more or less the same, but the risk is lower

Depends on your roleplay.

If a certain bard encountered more overzealous paladins of the opposite sex, I suspect his roleplay would present a far more mortal threat to him than goblins do to a certain whittler.

[oldgrayrogue]

And Rorax, I disagree about your point regarding different classes. A rogue can evade an encounter using his skills. A mage can use his magic to give him a huge advantage over that crit hit etc, etc. Starting at level 2 or 3 doesn't make you invincible. It avoids what many find to be doldrum. I am in total agreement that this should continue to be a permadeath world, with struggle and real risk etc. That is not the issue. I just don't really understand how a level 1 start as opposed to a 2 or 3 start, makes it a better RP experience. In fact, I would venture a guess that for many it has spoiled the experience more than once.

[ElCadaver]

Player Choice via in game script. Can start at level 2 if they wish not to die so easy... or can start at lvl 1 if they are RP leet freaks.

kthanksbai

[edit} ...and lvl 2 start allows multiclass characters to start with their chr concept intact

[danielmn]

Imagine this - how would you want to meet the woman of your dreams? work the hard way up with her and "win" her eventually, successfully passing every crisis point along the way on your own?

Or

Pick up the phone and order 5K woman from Ukraine who looks like a super model, cook, have sex, clean the house and automatically agree with everything you say?


Seriously?

You have to ask??

[rorax]

Surely starting at level 3 (or 2) is hardly any different from people grinding statics for the first couple of levels? Don't quote me here, but from memory the first few levels people do amazingly fast, only to slow down once they reach 4 or so. Wouldn't it be better to remove that grinding and just skip straight to that level? Your old PC, as an example rorax, progressed from 1-3 in a matter of 10 days. A new PC (not naming, and not specifically selecting - just using this perrson because they're online while I'm posting this) went from 1-4 in about 2 weeks. To me, neither of those two are a struggle.
.

I do not think it would be 'better' to just skip this stage where people level quickly. If it's only 10 days - 2 weeks to reach level 3 then isn't it worth the time to say you did it from the beginning? and it /is/ a struggle because during those 2 weeks you still have reasonable chance to die on any day.

If you'll start at level 3, people would still do quests the same rate as they did if they started at level one. Then they would quickly reach level 4, and we'll have the same issues all over again..."why start on level 3 when people quickly level to level 4 through quests anyhow, lets just skip that stage and start on 4th right away..."


I think besides the time and the risk issue here, for me there is also a point of being with your character from the very beginning. Personally, i rather level "quickly' myself than being given a toon on X level. I know it does not help to troubleshoot the issue OGR is raising here - that the world is too dangerous for lowbies to do most stuff.

Well, at least we don't have those killer badgers anymore.

[Rotku]

When people talk about starting at level 2 or 3, are they meaning starting with 1000, or 3000xp? Or meaning that even ECL races start at these higher levels?

If you'll start at level 3, people would still do quests the same rate as they did if they started at level one. Then they would quickly reach level 4, and we'll have the same issues all over again..."why start on level 3 when people quickly level to level 4 through quests anyhow, lets just skip that stage and start on 4th right away..."

I'm told over in Exodus they had problems with static grinding the first few levels. However, once they added a level 3 start, it more or less vanished. Seems people were simply grinding to get out of that original low level area.

[Rotku]

Hmm... just to add to that. From a DM point of view I'd like to start people at level 3, and NPC them off at level 7. How's that sound? Don't need any of these silly high levels wandering around.

[rorax]

And Rorax, I disagree about your point regarding different classes. A rogue can evade an encounter using his skills. A mage can use his magic to give him a huge advantage over that crit hit etc, etc. Starting at level 2 or 3 doesn't make you invincible. It avoids what many find to be doldrum. I am in total agreement that this should continue to be a permadeath world, with struggle and real risk etc. That is not the issue. I just don't really understand how a level 1 start as opposed to a 2 or 3 start, makes it a better RP experience. In fact, I would venture a guess that for many it has spoiled the experience more than once.

There is a good chance you are right i assume, i do not know. Surely starting at level 1 does not grantee any better RP experience than any other level. I think i'll sharpen my point, for me it's important to know know i've played my character right from the beginning....and the beginning is level 1. Again, like i said to rotku i know it does not answer the issue you raised in your OP.