Exodus Integration : A Poll

[johnlewismcleod]

What John said.

[Keryn]

Howdy!

So this isn't about "Exodus players who would be allowed to have 2 PCs" (for some period of time, or indefinitely). It's about long-time contributing members of both communities being allowed some considerate way to continue both PCs (if they choose), as well as anyone else who wants to enjoy the same benefits as them.

Hello javajutsu and welcome Maybe my thoughts were not crystal clear in that regard, and forgive me if that was the case since I am not a native English speaker and sometimes I have a hard time getting my idea out.

Anyway what I meant to say is that one of the foundations of ALFA has been the one PC per player for open play, that means without restrictions, of only being able to play it during a DM session or in specific events.

All those guys you named are indeed heavy weights, some of those work hard.. very hard to make ALFA a better place, tech wise, player wise, etc... And they are certainly people we must respect if we decide to make this transition no doubt.

My post was referring to this situation we might create if we don't establish a time gap to end up with one PC/Player and to meet one of the guiding rules of this community. One PC per player adds much to the IG enjoyment. And the prospect of having some few players able to play two PCs indefinitely doesn't get us any closer to the final goal of having a PC per player. It also creates that situation I made reference to, since it doesn't feel like a true transition.

On other hand I totally understand that it would be very hard to choose one out of two established PCs, would it even be fair?

Personally I don't care if some people play two PCs one in Amn, and other in all other servers, but like Veilan, I'm trying to see all the ugly things before hand, I ask myself how long until we have someone asking why can't they do that as well, and how fair that is. For me just the possibility of traveling to a new server to explore new lands to be DMed by new DMs is more then enough for being excited with this possibility of a merge.

Im looking forward for this to become a reality and I'm sure those that have the power in their hands will find a solution for this

[t-ice]

Veilan, I do get the points you're making and the gracious reply is appreciated. I'm by no means anti-rules. Beyond that, I now realize there's an implicit point of view in my previous post I should make explicit: We would actually much appreciate someone going through the Amn module and pointing (or even fixing ) inconsistencies to canon DnD. The differences that we wish to be there are few indeed, but the ones that are actually there are many more. What we're primarily short of is qualified manpower to fix it all just right.

Overwhelming majority of the inconsistencies never reach the PCs game, at least currently without the bridge, and thus second banana to actually DMing and playing the game. Especially as comes to item pricing. We have all magic items on DM only transactions currently, as availability and price of such in Amn depends a lot. On one hand this means no immediate need so far to fix item prices, but on the other this means on-engine prices of most magic items were not given any thought in the past. A small piece that would be a concrete example, UTIs of properly priced canon +1 magic items would help us. (higher don't really exist in Amn ATM but let them come in to the module if there)

As for where Amn might wish to deviate from ALFA rules as stated, only one really matters:

Wealth levels and tables.
From gut feeling I would say Amn PCs currently occupy slots both below and above the ALFA standards. At least they should. Wealth in Amn currently much follows whether the PC and player wants to proactively drive for the character to carve a piece of the rich Amnian pie or not. PCs that just "go with the flow and accept rewards" are likely below the wealth curve, and PCs that control flush spots in the Amnian flow of coin can be way above. From PC perspective there is minimal monster loot, but plenty "civilization" rewards from factions for doing quests. The biggest piece of those rewards is supposed to be openings to carving said pie. If PCs and players take the initiative. This is front and center how we've always strived to make Amn work, and how the IC richness of the setting that is Amn comes to play.

As what I think a minor point, we've also had some more variety (over DnD canon) in non-magic items, stuff like -1 to damage compensated by +1 to hit or vice versa. Some masterwork items are done with +1 to damage instead of the canon +1 to hit or +2 to skill. Small stuff (compared to magic) like that.

But really the IC rules and guidelines I see as no problem in the end, I think we're willing to flex it where needed.

(Also, voted then)

[I-KP]

From gut feeling I would say Amn PCs currently occupy slots both below and above the ALFA standards. At least they should.

That's a good point actually. Based on experience in both games I'd have to say that from a loose coin standpoint, i.e., the amount of coin you have in your purse, ALFA characters are probably much better off than their Amnian counterparts. However, from an affluence standpoint, i.e., the worth of acquisitions tied up in fixed assets (or clothing *ahem*), then Amnians launch into the stratosphere, comparatively speaking. I suppose this stems from the perhaps paradoxical social predication in Amn that affluent members of high society are expected to flash out the loose coin to the lower social stratum like confetti, and to out-do one another with hideously expensive follies and often superficial gestures, thus are most of the time somewhat broke!

[Castano]

Has anyone looked at the wealth differential between Exodus and ALFA PCs? *ducks and hides*

[dergon darkhelm]

Has anyone looked at the wealth differential between Exodus and ALFA PCs? *ducks and hides*

I logged in with my Exodus PCs after an 18 month absence and was quickly noted as being overly wealthy. I don't think that he was particulary rich back in 2008-09 in comparison to other Exodus PCs, so I think perhaps Exodus has drifted toward lower wealth/ gear in the recent years.

On the other hand ALFA, which I think was quite tight with gold early on, has loosened a bit, keeping pretty close to the Standars for wealth per D&D. It used to be that a large %age of the the player base were unable to keep enough coin to adventure. I don't think that is the case now.

Finally, my looking around Exo recently poking my head into numerous areas and looking to get into trouble, showed very few static spawns. That in and of itself will have a significant downward effect on wealth.

[javajutsu]

... my looking around Exo recently poking my head into numerous areas and looking to get into trouble, showed very few static spawns. That in and of itself will have a significant downward effect on wealth.

There are fewer (almost no) static spawns on the travel routes, in the sewers, etc. So, gone are the days of grinding the bandits on the road for drops and xp. On the other hand, also gone are the days of not being able to travel from city to city with your new PC for fear of being ganked by statics on the road.

And there are no mindless static quests that can be ground to death for coin. ("Oh, you again? Another 3 rat tails? *sigh* Yeah, sure, why not. Here's your 5 GP.") After we cleared them out, we had lots of ideas for what we hoped would be interesting static quests, which would provide you with some faction benefit or something other than coin. But we haven't implemented those yet.

On the other hand, we added approximately 4 (I'll leave some of the mystery ) dens of increasing-difficulty statics for players to kill if they're so inclined. They're a bit out-of-the-way, so travelers aren't menaced by them. They're pretty well-marked if you're looking for them.

These were added so players would have something to do while waiting for other players or a DM to join them on the server; and to provide an RP opportunity for groups if they really want to RP going out to kill something in between DM sessions. We attempted to make them provide very little xp (especially to anyone 5th level or above) and very little treasure. They're there for something to do, not to make someone wealthy or be able to quickly "grind their way up the level ladder".

So far, they've been under-utilized for either purpose, but we're still pretty happy with having them there. dergon darkhelm, at least, seems to be getting some fun out of them.

As far as "a significant downward effect on wealth", dergon darkhelm is right... as far as soloing is concerned. In Amn it's really very simple. If you avoid DM sessions, you will be forever poor. There's really no way to gather any serious amount of coin other than DM sessions. (Exodus:Amn uses the same timed xp scripts as ALFA, though. So if you have nothing better to do and you're willing to keep yourself busy for many long hours, you can still conquer the first few levels pretty quickly through nothing but timed xp.)

You can hire yourself out as a merc to guard caravans or whatever (and get decent pay for your service), or take on "standard adventuring" jobs (e.g. a dungeon crawl, or killing the Big Bad Who Is Menacing Travelers(tm)) (and get decent compensation for your efforts) or stick to inner-city intrigue and politics (and possibly become fabulously wealthy for your efforts).

But either way, you must do so by participating in the DM sessions, which basically means playing with others. With a few exceptions, loners will not prosper.

So, to underscore what I-KP said: in Amn, PCs will tend to be either below the curve, or well above it, in terms of wealth. For those who are truly wealthy, much of their wealth is tied up in their business, but they will probably be well-equipped too. After all, you can only spend so much coin on needlessly flashy clothes and (very public) donations to the poor.

[Swift]

On the other hand ALFA, which I think was quite tight with gold early on, has loosened a bit, keeping pretty close to the Standars for wealth per D&D. It used to be that a large %age of the the player base were unable to keep enough coin to adventure. I don't think that is the case now.

The vast majority of ALFAns hover between Low to Average wealth, with a few stuck between Very Low and Low.

[I-KP]

After all, you can only spend so much coin on needlessly flashy clothes

Nothing needless about it.

The only things preventing limitless expenditure on clothing in Amn are a) locating cool haks in the NWN vault and bastardising them, and b) finding enough time in-game to strut. Who needs funky magical doohickies when you can spend ten grand on an item of clothing that's seemingly woven out of captured whispers.

[johnlewismcleod]

Holy Canolies!

I need to get onto Exodus and see this stuff! Can we streamline the union process, please?

[NickD]

As for statics, my favourite static in ALFA has been the herb gathering static in BG. It's been disabled for now, but wandering around the Cloakwood looking for plants made it into a kind of treasure hunt. Like looking for easter eggs in the back yard when I was a kid. I also preferred the randomisation of encounters in the old BG. When you always know what you're going to encounter, it becomes ... less interesting.

[Veilan]

Expensive clothing without stats isn't that big of a problem, really - considering it usually has no combat value, it could easily be counted at half-price, as we've done on occasion with items that mainly have an RP value. Why half and not zero? Well, you could turn the clothes back into cash, after all .

[t-ice]

very few static spawns. That in and of itself will have a significant downward effect on wealth.

This is a very purposeful point at Exodus/Amn. No significant amount of wealth is to come from statics. Back in the day we had bandits on the roads yielding a couple dozen gold or so a pop, turning into (relatively) lush field to farm for hundreds of gold per hour to those so dedicated. Without implication to any specific PC, this in turn made actual typical PC wealth a function of said dedication, as opposed to the connections of the PC to the wealthy merchants of Amn. Which in our view significantly undermined the setting. Thus, most spawns were removed.

Since on the other hand it sure would be nice to have people around RPing, we've been trying to find a middle ground. With lack of build manpower, the current situation remains with very little static content, and probably consequently, minimal playage outside DM hours. Personally I've come to accept it. And what static content we've added back in has so far found minimal interest among players. Naturally this is a somewhat moot an argument, as the players who wanted that static content had by then left us.

As for that middle ground, our idea has been that static spawns should yield at least somewhat significant xp but not gold. This would preserve both the wealth and connections -centric nature of the setting, as well as yield a return for players willing to play static content (though hitting statics in a party of one never really is RP, and thus not encourageable, IMO). The fighter who beats goblins and beetles all day long becomes a better fighter (xp), but not rich. Because the best RP activity without a DM is PCs meeting and talking and scheming, my own preference to try to lure people to play without a DM is to pump up the timed xp loop. But I realize that is missing an important psychological reward for action -component.

Regardless, our view on the purpose of statics is to have a framework for PCs to run little things and bide time together without a DM. Still, if there's constantly players on without a DM, what we should mostly encourage, by any possible means, is for one of those players to become a DM, rather than build more statics. And finally, any statics added should never need policing by DMs. That takes away from the most important thing in the game. Meaning that rewards should either be low enough, or scale low enough with repeated harvesting, to have no need to keep a lookout for farmers.

So, what does all this have to do with the unification The bottom line is that Amn has very little static content (no quests, a handful of lairs of monster spawns). Above is how this has come to be, and why it is as it is. And why adding static content is not high on our staff agenda as to where to dedicate time to. One obvious thing this implies to me is that starting off at Amn would be more difficult without a host of simple FedEx etc. quests to run. Thus, current lvl3 starts. What the lack of statics implies looking at this from the ALFA side ... why don't you tell me, please?

[johnlewismcleod]

BG server is without statics currently, and no-one is complaining overmuch. Statics are a double-edged sword on ALFA as well...we constantly have discussions about static abuse and PC's milking them to rapidly climb to L3 or L4 without investing the time and RP of the first levels.

Quite a lot of thought and finesse has been put into the statics on TSM, and Ayergo and now Sand have some brilliant ideas for statics on BG. Ayergo's herb/spell component gathering was a godsend and took static to an entirely new level where it was a brilliant enrichment, and yet quite resistant to abuse.

All in all I would think static content is a mute point in the merger consideration. It something that is under constant development anyway. It can be added or not as the HDM deems appropriate.

Starting at L3, on the otherhand, might well raise some debate, however. Some of our most respected ALFA'ns would happily embrace it, while others cling to the tradition of starting at L1.

I'm in the "start at L1" camp, personally...mainly because I find the low levels are incredibly fun and exciting when an angry badger, incompetent thug, or underfed goblin can easily best a PC.

With good DM coverage, however, it becomes inconsequential. Everyone's happy no matter their level if they can get some adventure/terror in their gametime with reasonable frequency

[dergon darkhelm]

btw....I hope that my comments on wealth were taken merely as *observation* to explain differences in wealth levels on the two servers..... I wasn't being hard on a value judgement.

The "Campaign Server" vs "24/7 PW" setup is hotly debated and each has merit.