4th edition - now what do I do?

[Mulu]

I've lately considered starting a PnP campaign myself. PnP is much easier than having to build/DM for in NWN. I think I'll just be a player in NWN at NWC and PW's, and do my DM'ing in PnP. I live in a college town, well right next to Cal Poly. It's full of engineering nerds. I should have no problem finding a group of stinky gamers. I'll probably find a location rather than bring them into my house....

Of course than means moving on to 4e. The nostalgia for 2e runs strong, and let's face it the "already knowing how to do it" is nice. But I doubt I'll be able to find a bunch of college kids to run a 20 year old game for. That means learning a new game.

I have decided to forego the changes to the FR. I'm sticking with 3.5 ed Forgotten Realms. It's just the campaign world, places and dates. The ruleset is irrelevant, IMO. So 4th edition ruleset, 3.5 edition Forgotten Realms. Moonshae Campaign.

I'm looking forward to it. I too am interested in learning something new, and I might really like it. So yeah, I'm in the exact same spot, and I'm reading this in earnest.

My plan is to start a new group next Fall. That gives me the whole summer to prepare a campaign and learn the rules.

Or, I could just write a sci-fi novel. That would be a good use of time too. In fact I've already started it.

[Rumple C]

Having played with the same group years of 3.5 and now 4 I can reveal....

4e wins overall.

The classes are all balanced, teamwork is -essential-, no one pc can wipe out the opponents singlehandedly as was possible in 3.5 (thinking mainly of spellcasters here).

Heres the difference...

3.5

round 1. 3.5 - Fighter... i swing my sword... *rolls dice*
round 2. 3.5 - Fighter... i swing my sword... *rolls dice*
round 3. 3.5 - Fighter... i swing my sword... *rolls dice*
round 4. 3.5 - Fighter... i swing my sword... *rolls dice*
round 5. 3.5 - Fighter... i swing my sword... *rolls dice*

4e

round 1 4e - Fighter... I use the encounter power "kick in the nuts"... *rolls dice*, oh a hit the enemy takes x damage and is prone and dazed
round 2 4e - Fighter... I use the utility power "war face"... I get to use a healing surge as my fighter lets loose a killer scream!, i follow this up with a daily power "blah blah", etc etc.

So all classes now feel like they have more to do in combat, making it a lot more tactical for all involved. Now on the issue of balance it means that spell casting has been scaled back. Casters no longer have supplement after supplement of spells they can choose from and memorise, they are limited to the same number of choices more or less as the other classes. No more save or die spells. Spells other than fireball are now worth taking. Spells that are used out of combat are now rituals and take 10 mins to cast as well as a component cost.

Did i mention teamwork is essential?. No one pc can do it all. The healer/leader needs to keep the party on their feet (the enemies are tough, and those criticals hurt!), the controller needs to stop the party from being swamped all at once, the striker needs to
do the damage when and where it counts (pick those targets wisely), and the defenders need to stand tough in the middle of it all.

Each role (or variation) can be filled by differing classes/types (divine, arcane, primal, martial etc etc) so it you want a spellcasting defender, there is a class for it. IF you want a spellcasting striker - very possible, if you want a primal healer ok.

ITs good.

enjoy!

[Swift]

You could have reduced all of that post into 5 words Rumple:

"It plays like an MMO."

[NickD]

I just started a 4e campaign. Combat is much, much less cumbersome. [...] I also just finished a 3.5 campaign at lvl20 with a mystic theurge, and by the end it was getting somewhat exhausting just to manage my PC.

I've seen a similar comment before. What exactly is it about 4e that makes combat so much simplier and 3.5e so much more complicated? The only thing I can infer from this thread is that casters have their choices reduced in 4e...

[fluffmonster]

for one, you don't have 30-odd spell slots that you need to first pick spells to fill and then in-game try to decide what to cast first. You have a much smaller selection of power slots that don't change from encounter to encounter, you can only retrain when you level up. Managing a spellcaster is now much less work. At the same time, as rumple said non-casters gain more tactical options because they have powers too making them potentially *more* interesting to play. I just started 4e so I don't know exactly what its like at higher levels. The distinguishing emphasis between classes isn't so much class any more as it is role in the game...striker, controller, etc..

As for combat itself, my first impression is that it is more streamlined with fewer specific rules to this or that action or circumstance. Grappling and charging for example are more straightforward it seems.

[Blindhamsterman]

Nick, main thing about spellcasters is that their combat powers are indeed more limited than 3.5, they'll have a couple of at wills etc. HOWEVER the rituals make up for that as you are encouraged to make further rituals as appropiate (you = DM) Also defensive spells are if i remember correctly rituals, the damage or controlling spells are generally scaled very well making them fun to use even if there are less to choose from, and many have options built in. Another Big difference is a wizard can be as good at melee or whatever else they like as a warrior if they wish to, it takes a bit of focus and putting ability points in places that often wouldn't be 'optimum' but the options are there.

Personally I played a Swordmage (suprise suprise, he was an Eldarin and multiclassed to wizard). An example of a level 1 daily power would be 2 x weapon damage + additional fire damage every round equal to the characters strength. An Example of a level 2 utility power (first level you get them i think) would be Eldritch Speed which gives an additional move action on the first round and +5 to initiative.
Eladrin get a very short range encounter power allowing them to teleport which is quite nice also.

[Waffles]

You could have reduced all of that post into 5 words Rumple:

"It plays like an MMO."

Yes it's true, it's just like an MMO. This is very similar to what happened in my pnp game when the dm ended our previous campaign.

[Mulu]

The reason classic campaigns in the old days could run for 15 years and be fun and not become cumbersome in AD&D is because the level curve was so steep, and many of us didn't want to level.....

My last AD&D campaign, which ran for 8 years, ended at Level... wait for it.... 10th overall.

10th level. The barbarian was 9th. The rogue was 12th. The rest was 10-11th. That's playing once every other week for 8 years, with about 90% campaign attendance. This was the best campaign I ever had. We got two marriages out of that playing group. Great people.

Obviously, we didn't use a lot of the XP rules, like magic items and treasure

All xp was a single sum lump at the end of the session, which the DM choose for leveling campaign leveling purposes.

Of course running a 20th or 40th level is harder, on every one. Of course it takes a lot more game time to manage 20th level mystical theurgis or whatever. But I would never do something that stupid! I like low level campaigns.

So the real question for me is: Does 4th edition play well from 1st -9th over a period of call it 4 years (college students)? I *know* 1st and 2nd edition play awesome at that level range, but I'm worried about trying to get the kids to play obsolete versions.

[fluffmonster]

I missed the point at which it was necessary to call anyone stupid in this conversation. There are so many subjective assumptions behind that statement that it starts to become guilty of its own accusation.

[Mulu]

Oh sorry, fine fine, I'm only getting about 3 hours sleep a day due to the meds. That's no REM sleep for a month, BTW....

No excuse, just saying.

And I *am* interested in any insights on how the game would play under those parameters. Yours and anyone else's.

[maxcell]

I really like the idea of your house rules being the integration of 4e into your 3.5 FR campaign. I don't see how that is any different than the multitudes of worlds we DMs have created over the years with the core rules as the road map for them.

The more I am talking about it, and finding stuff like this next link, worm isn't turning just yet, but I do notice some wiggling.

This is the video series where a wotc dm runs the writers for Robot Chicken through the 1st module, in 4e rules. They have all rolled lvl1 chars, and a couple have admitted that they have never player DnD before. I did not get all the way through the vid series yet, only up to the encounter with a talking door, but quite frankly it looks to me like ....DnD! good descriptions and settings by DM, discussion amongst the group as to what to do, rolls where called for by the DM, and roleplaying (not hardcore perhaps, but remember they are comedy writers on camera)
Quite frankly, it looked fun

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Videos.aspx


edit: I am not sure how much I would be able to invest in miniatures and tiles etc however.

[Lucifer]

I've been listening to all this wondering what the need for all the editions is..most every DM adds custom content and rules anyway. IMHO 1st edition was fine..second ..with all the supplements added more than anyone will ever need,as far as creating variables to base custom content off of. The Great Gygax himself was ammazed that anyone ever needed information on classes above 10th level..his original campaign ran 20+ yearsand none of the Chars exceeded 10th level. I understand some like to level faster..that is fine..I personally love the idea of some PrC's and lament you must level a certain amount to attain them. Here is the thing though..A creative intelligent and dedicated DM can add all this at any point and in any system he chooses..Rules Lawyering PC's are the only thing to deter from it. Be a DM..don't allow that..and make sure their PC's desires get enough attention to keep them hooked..and enogh denial to keep them striving:D

My Two cents regardless of "edition"

[NickD]

I remember reading about 3e and thinking it was all too dumbed down (although I've always liked some parts of it) Now I prefer the simplicity of it to older editions, but I'm guessing in the core rules, XP gain is probably a little faster than it is in ALFA.

I'm feeling the same way about 4e (I like the sound of saving throws being "defenses" and how some classes get alternate attacks in the form of powers, but not too keen on the implementation of the idea of "powers") I suspect I'll get used to it, should there be a CRPG utilizing the ruleset.

Personally, I would have de-emphazied classes and made everything skill based (e.g., BAB = skill points in the weapon you're using; spells per day based on some kind of "arcane training" skill), with classes purely defined by what skills they have. I also would have made the choice of race having a much more significant impact on how a character plays. But I'm no game designer.

[Mulu]

I.A creative intelligent and dedicated DM can add all this at any point and in any system he chooses..
/

My Two cents regardless of "edition"

I totally concur. My only concern is just "advertising" really, recruiting a group from the local college kids.

My god, I sound like I'm looking for tail!

I've considered various class-less rules. It would be easy to make one up honestly. Again though, I keep coming back to "who will want to show up to play this game?" And I think that means going with whatever is popular right now.

I can't go to work, may as well go to game....

[dirsa]

My god, I sound like I'm looking for tail!

well, you did mention above that your old pnp group led to two marriages... so it's only a logical conclusion...