ALFA and traps, arrows and ?

[Dorn]

Hi guys,

Arrows:
I understand archery is busted because arrows cannot get past damage reduction and perhaps one or two other things. Is this a DnD thing or NWN2 thing?

If it's NWN2 bug, is there anything that can be done to fix it or is it a hardcoded fault?


Traps:
What's the reason we dont have them in game for PCs to use? Is it a policy or bug thing? Can non-damage traps be recoverable/purchased? (ie those things that trap a person for some time while the rogue escapes rather than 'reflex save or die traps')


Are there any other bug/FAQ type things regarding fixes that a single place of answers would be good for enquiring minds?

[AcadiusLost]

Re: arrows, I'm not aware of any problems with them currently, other than the familiar drawbacks of the game engine (can't ever really aim at anything beyond close range due to the draw/sight distance) and the D&D rules (low damage on non-crit arrow attacks makes overcoming DR difficult). Perhaps someone could clarify what the arrow "bugs" are supposed to be?

re: Traps; the instant-preparation "dungeon-style trap in a bag" kits simply have zero basis in canon. There was apparently some sort of PrC that had the ability to set up limited traps "on the fly", but it's certainly not what the trap kits were simulating. I believe we could certainly support the ability of PCs to set basic snares for hunting, but I would like to see it key to a canon skill (no such thing as "set traps" in PnP), either Survival (not ideal, since that's already super-useful as the monster-radar mechanic), or Rope Use (would require the custom skillset work, which is on indefinite hold due to instability problems). We'd also probably want to make it take a fair bit longer than the 5-odd seconds it takes to throw a trap kit down in default NWN1/2.

Note that traps may still appear in-game; they're a fundamental part of D&D- it's just that they are supposed to be static obstacles, with presumed hours to weeks of preparation involved in their placement. Fully in the realm of NPC dungeon owners, rich merchants protecting their loot chests, etc. This means DMs should also not be using them in an "on-demand, instant setup" fashion either, this time around.

If the "snare" mechanic is something people are clamoring for, I can try to bump that up in the priority queue for tech work somewhat. I'd prefer if we could find some canon 3.5E rules to base the system on though, if possible.

[Ithildur]

I'm guessing Dorn is refering to the issue of enchanted bows not cutting through DR, not arrows.

Has the idea I suggested some time of of giving enchanted bows the Arcane Archer feat onEquip been experimented with/considered at all?

Currently there is only one active archer player I know in alfa, which might be taken to mean this isn't a huge priority...

However, I also look at the situation and can't help but wonder, how many more archers we *might* have if archery worked a bit better in nwn2/alfa2; I do think it's a significant problem if in fact people simply aren't considering archers a viable choice mainly because of some of the problems the game engine has; I dread seeing the day when every other PC on alfa is a power melee build or a cleric. If we could come up with relatively simple solutions, such as this one perhaps (it needs testing certainly to see if it works at all and balance considerations), I'd suggest that it should be considered as an option at least until a more elegant solution might be found or Obsidian fixes this.

[Riotnrrd]

Archery is already ridiculously powerful in ALFA. I don't know why people don't use bows and arrows more, but it's not because of lack of power.

If enchanted bows / arrows are broken for DR, could someone please precisely explain the problem?

[Ithildur]

Archery is already ridiculously powerful in ALFA. I don't know why people don't use bows and arrows more, but it's not because of lack of power.

Oh boy... *waits for Keryn to respond*

I'm curious; what makes you say this Riot? I know Keryn has a pretty uber archer but he's lvl 8 and has a dedicated archer ranger with nearly every feat possible taken towards archery plus a nice bow that doesn't grow on trees. I've n ot seen anyone else who'd be considered anything near an uber ranged attacker (although there's a couple good ones with sneak attack, but nothing I've seen that's overpowered)

As far as the DR issue, enchanted bows are supposed to bypass DR; ie a monster that requires a +1 weapon to hit to bypass DR would have it's DR bypassed by someone firing a +1 longbow, even with mundane arrows. In nwn2 however, this does not work; only +1 or greater arrows can bypass DR. Buying enchanted arrows ends up being exponentially more costly eventually than having an enchanted bow, especially in a nwn2/pw environment where there's more combat than pnp.

[kiyoti]

as far as i remember it is the arrows that are supposed to be what overcome DR (i hate to say it but it is "canon") and the bow only acts as a bonus to hit. yes it costs to keep a supply of +1 arrows but honestly there has to be some kind of draw back to being able to pick off your targets at long range while they cant do anything but attempt to close. If the bow does both bonus to attack and damage that would make a bow/ranged attacker the uber-build of all time with no draw back. I play a ranger/ranged PC that uses thrown weapons and i always have to pay for the good stuff so why would we treat arrows any diffrent than darts/axes/bullets? if this gets changed so its the bow not the arrow, i ask what are we going to do for all the other ranged weapons to keep this balanced?

[Riotnrrd]

As far as the DR issue, enchanted bows are supposed to bypass DR; ie a monster that requires a +1 weapon to hit to bypass DR would have it's DR bypassed by someone firing a +1 longbow, even with mundane arrows. In nwn2 however, this does not work; only +1 or greater arrows can bypass DR.

Thanks. I think Obsidian / Bioware would have to fix this one, sorry.

I'm pretty sure in 3.0 you needed a magic arrow to bypass DR. However, I'm also pretty sure they changed it in 3.5 so that mundane arrows fired from a magical bow will bypass DR (see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... eReduction )

[kiyoti]

i could be wrong but it thought that the change was the oppisite that in 3.0 the bow added its echantment bonus to hit/damage and they changed it in 3.5 to splitting it between the bow(hit) /arrow (dmg). *shrugs* have ta look at the 3.0/3.5 PHBs when i get home from work i guess.

[Keryn]

Riot is correct my last test shows that Enhanced Bows are bypassing DR as they should. This is not a bug anymore it was fixed in some of the last patches I would guess.

Regarding kyoti post:

The rules state that any projectile weapons can be enhanced, so its not just arrows its bolts, arrows, and bullets. And from what i have checked its 3.5 as stated in the d20SDR site.

Throwing weapons such as Throwing Axes and Darts, the wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons, and doesn't have to pay for a projectile weapon to be able to use them.

Furthermore a Throwing Weapon could be enhanced with the "Returning" property, in order to return to the one using it. So they are on par with projectile weapons, in fact with this property they are much more ubber using your words. Though the game engine doesn't allow for this property to be applied, or no one was yet able to script it or tried to, I have seen discussions i NwN1 regarding it aswell and it never got done.

Doesn't seem that the argument yours is better then mine really is a great one, SDR is quite balanced I suppose when choosing such weapons we are aware of their limitations, the RP flavor though is there.

This is not to say that darts and throwing axes aren't as good as they could be once enchanted with such property. Its a game problem, but to say after making a choice knowing about its limitations, if projectile weapons can be enhanced then something is wrong, is the wrong way to look at things IMO. The problem is with throwing axes and darts, and we should see if something can be done about it.

Also saying theres no draw back for those using projectile weapons, is a bit extreme if we look at how things are priced... it seems to be the ridiculous amount of gold payed for these weapons and projectiles specially when enchanted is already a huge drawback, and is there to compensate for the ability to attack at range, also to keep in mind theres pluses and minus to all things, and once a ranged PC who focus entirely in its ranged weapon (DEX based) needs to get into mellee it usually gets a hard time, while the same PC using STR as their main ability enters close combat with ease pulling their sword and shield, and making good use of their STR in combat with no penalties attached. It depends on how you play your PC and how you envisioned it I suppose.

Just my two coppers

[Ithildur]

as far as i remember it is the arrows that are supposed to be what overcome DR (i hate to say it but it is "canon") and the bow only acts as a bonus to hit. yes it costs to keep a supply of +1 arrows but honestly there has to be some kind of draw back to being able to pick off your targets at long range while they cant do anything but attempt to close. If the bow does both bonus to attack and damage that would make a bow/ranged attacker the uber-build of all time with no draw back. I play a ranger/ranged PC that uses thrown weapons and i always have to pay for the good stuff so why would we treat arrows any diffrent than darts/axes/bullets? if this gets changed so its the bow not the arrow, i ask what are we going to do for all the other ranged weapons to keep this balanced?

Bows cut through DR because THAT's canon. Your issue then is with DnD 3.5e, not alfa or nwn2.

3.5e rules allow for enchanted bows to overcome DR. As far as bows being 'better' in a numbers sense than axes, darts, etc. it's the user's choice; weapons are simply not created equal, and in 3.0e/3.5e it's much worse than 2e. At least in 2e you had weapons that did less dmg have better weapon speed/rate of fire... don't know why they stupidly took that out in 3e. As a result if you're going for efficiency alone then you would never select certain weapons if you have a choice; a 3e non weapon finesse fighter would be unoptimal to focus on say, dagger (without dual wielding) vs a greatsword if you're purely PGing. Same with bow vs darts. Darts were never a premium offensive weapon but in 2e they had their usefulness (high rate of fire/excellent weapon speed, great for disrupting spellcasters) but in 3e, they are utterly lame. At least with axes you get str bonus to dmg which is very nice for helping overcome DR even without enhancement. Plus there's other issues like being able to reuse ammo/thrown weapons etc.

But sheer efficiency is not the only reason we pick weapons for our guys in ALFA anyway.

ANYWAY, this is all a moot point if obsidian did indeed stealth fix this issue at some point recently. Archers are NOT as gimped anymore, Keryn should rejoice, and the rest of us should either buy enchanted bows, or stick with the (in the long run) more expensive enchanted thrown weapons and curse WOTC, or continue to use non enchanted stuff and hope DMs don't spawn tons of DR mobs on low wealth PCs.

[kiyoti]

thanks for the clarification gentlemen. and yes i was very aware of the limitations/benefits when taking the weapons (thrown) that i decided to use but they fit the toon. i dig ‘em just the same. nice to see a quick resolution.

[Dorn]

Just to reanimate this corpse...ah..thread

Is the time taken to set a trap in game (eg it's a single 'turn' right now?) hardcoded?

I agree the trap on the fly is silly.

But it's be great to have some traps that could be set as part of battle tactics.

For example set a few of the less deadly traps at some pinch points to hold up an enemy to allow you to retreat to the next one. Either outter gate to inner gate. Crevass to crevass, or bridge spanning the chasm to doorway. etc etc

By less deadly i mean you prob you couldn't set a major/critical/deadly trap in this time as AL described in his post right up the top.

At the moment the fall back defend, fall back defend, fallback defend is almost impossible unless you have a mage with sleep spells or an unhittable tank to hold the gap. It just ends in a big mess of enemies and PCs stretched out in individual fights.

If we could extend the settting time make it take a reasonable time (perhaps as long as sleeping takes?) at least we could prepare masterful battles!!

Maybe we could make 'use trap' is like 'use holy symbol'? The end result is you get spells back but it takes some time.

But if it's hardcoded, it's hard coded. I know nothing about the stuff behind the pictures on my screen.

[danielmn]

So Dorn's plan to rule alfa is at last known....

Make heavy armour wearers slow enough to not be able to run away from his PC's infinite traps.

[Dorn]

Curses....and if it wasn't for you pesky DanM's i would have got away with it to!!!!


Edit to above: obviously i was referring to single use traps....unlike the holy symbol.

[Rotku]

But it's be great to have some traps that could be set as part of battle tactics.

I remember that guy on TLR who use to set traps in a battle.

Was a great help, until a deer wandered on it, blew up in his face, killing both him and the deer.

Was one of the funniest things I've seen in ALFA.