Detect Evil and You

[Magile]

Greetings,

For the first time in ALFA, I've actually made a paladin. I was normally put off by their restrictive nature and religious aspects; however, playing a cleric for a few months gave me a better idea of how to portray and play a character without going truly overboard or into a situation I would not enjoy playing. I have an issue with playing a paladin at the moment that may be a simple fix if I'm awkwardly over-thinking the situation.

When I played my cleric, I was with SwordSaint's paladin a lot. His paladin used Detect Evil every so often, and being the upfront and formal person he is, he would whisper folks around the area and request whether or not they "ping" when detected. Most folks would agree and say "yes" or "no", some even becoming more specific (which SwordSaint would tell them not to afterwards). Being the cautious person that I am (in-game, not in-chat or on the forums), I am a bit wary about taking this approach because I am uncertain on how people would respond. I've left it to DM-only situations, but I'd like to make the most out of this class ability.

I've created a poll, but I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on the matter (player especially).

[fluffmonster]

It really needs a DM to adjudicate.

[Riotnrrd]

I'm all for detection spells, except for the fact that many of the protections against divinations do not currently exist in ALFA (misdirection, non-detection, detect scrying, nystuls magic aura, obscure object, etc etc).

If we allow detect spells in (detect good, detect magic, zone of truth, detect falsehood, etc etc etc) we have to also let in the ones that would protect against such, and magic items with properties that would detect against them, as well.

You're going to need DMs for this, which is great if they're around, or an expectation that everyone knows the rules of 3.5, which I think is generally *not* the case.

[psycho_leo]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

My only problems with detect evil is when people misunderstand the ability or of course when they try to use it as a radar trying to see evil everywhere. It doesn't detect alignment, so while it will pick up the evil cleric of cyric, the maskan rogue will be unnoticed unless he's planning on sticking a knife at your back. That said, back in the days of Daggerdale we allowed paladin PCs to use the ability within the proper rules.

[Magile]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

My only problems with detect evil is when people misunderstand the ability or of course when they try to use it as a radar trying to see evil everywhere. It doesn't detect alignment, so while it will pick up the evil cleric of cyric, the maskan rogue will be unnoticed unless he's planning on sticking a knife at your back. That said, back in the days of Daggerdale we allowed paladin PCs to use the ability within the proper rules.

This is why I added the segment about SwordSaint's PC and detecting evil. He had done it with the honesty of the player in mind, and would tell folks to NOT say their alignment, only "ping" of they were within the Evil range. Some folks would go to far and give away information, he'd have to tell them otherwise not to.

I understand all the points given so far, which is why I wanted to bring up this thread and get a better understanding of how folks would handle it.

edit: As an addition, chat is currently under the impression that the spell went the way of the dodo and should not be allowed in-game. At least three or four people are stating it's a bogus, plot-ruining cop-out spell. I guess I'm gaining some good insight now.

[Curmudgeon]

I've played a paladin on SD for 4+ years, and would only use Detect Evil with DM assistance. Of course, you can always just Smite them to find out.

[Mord]

Do not want.

[hollyfant]

Considerations have to be extended both ways, of course. Since the actual spells aren't available, I'd say it's fair for any wizard, sorcerer or bard to claim they have a masking spell active if their players consider that reasonable.

[dergon darkhelm]

I'm "other"

In that I don't think it even requires "tasteful" use. Use it as per D&D rulset...DONE.......well, not quite....

You have to provide provide evil PCs access to means to coutner those spells.


A couple of things to think on:

ALFA PCs are beginning to reach mid to high levels. They will be scrying, using "true seeing" and a host of other divination spells. PCs vulnerable to their use should expect it and behave accordingly.

PCs that do bold things and stand out from the crowd (pretty much any PC that participates in "public" plots) are going to come under scrutiny both from PCs and NPCs.

A fair and broad ruling on "undetectable alingment" would go a long way in providing a counterspell to "detect evil" divination..........Your evil PC give off an aura? Better acquire a way to mask it.

My NWN1 PC spent a great deal of time acquiring means to mask aligment and BS PCs/NPCs. Those in the faction that went before me made sure to keep their hideout scryproof, hidden, and secret.

Evil PCs need to either play below the radar (Shar/ Mask) or be prepared to manage the fallout of open declaration of evil (Bane).

If you are an evil cleric then leave one spell slot open and RP to yourself after your prayers the casting of undetectable alignment before head out into the sunlight.

[Dorn]

I'm ok with it provided it's done tastefully.

ie if a meta-known ebul character says 'no' when you detect evil. You have to take there word for it and play appropraitly. As identified above if they are generally evil but have no evil intent that moment or have a screening spell up.

That being said. If you're an evil cleric/wizard and expect to use these spells. Make sure you have left a spell slot blank.

[Brokenbone]

DM required, there are so many variables, and even then, haven't a lot of faith all DMs will know what they're doing. This is true for virtually any divination spell, each of which is going to require pulling out measuring tapes, figuring out if the wall of that stone cottage is too thick for penetration, if you're keeping a talisman of pure evil in a lead box on your person, all kinds of things.

If it's players all trying to figure this out with their own PCs, not all players will stop, grab 3.5 SRD, figure out where on the charts they'd fall (if at all), and be able to report back anything accurate. Yes, in some cases like if you KNOW your PC is a cleric of an evil deity, they will be able to say "ah ha, I must radiate such and such amount of evil", but in most cases, there's going to be ambiguities that DMs are required to mediate/resolve.

[Zelknolf]

I think the big thing that everyone forgets about the paladin's detect evil goes like so...

Detect Evil (Sp)

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

(font changes for emphasis)

A paladin's detect evil isn't meditating; it's not a penetrating gaze; it's not a a spider sense that tingles. Paladins cast a spell when they detect evil. It's disruptable; it's resistable; it's dispellable; it's noticeable enough and distracting enough to provoke attacks of opportunity; it takes 3 rounds to identify a specific individual as evil or not, occupying a standard action in each of those rounds (during such time, the individual is likely to have noticed the casting, gotten offended, and stomped off - the following, of course, would restart that 3-round counter, as the paladin would be viewing a new 60' cone). The real distinction between "spell like" and "spell" is in components (namely that spell-like abilities don't have any, so identifying them requires something kin to detect magic).

If detect evil was actually played out as being that much of an investment of attention - keeping in mind that walking while maintaining concentration on a spell is, mechanically, exactly as distracting as fighting a horde of goblins - and that obvious to observers, the ability would be one whole mess less obnoxious and a whole mess more acceptable to play with.

[fluffmonster]

I wasn't aware that at-will abilities provoked AoO. Are you quite sure on that?

[Riotnrrd]

spell like abilities require concentration, are subject to attacks of opportunity, and disruption, per the 3.5 PHB

[dergon darkhelm]

Warning ---nerd D&D stuff on Spell-like abilities (i'm cheating and copy/pasting from the SRD but)..

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

Now into personal opinion and the way we have played it in my PnP game:

While the spell does provoke an AoO while threatened, this is only because of the concentration required. Since it is a mental concentration only, and cannot be counterspelled, we interpreted that to mean that the casting cannot be anticipated or predicted....Meaning that people around the Spell like power using creature would only notice that the creature "seems to go deep in thought" or "seems to slightly lower it's fiery blade as it's eyes glaze over" or some other thing to play out the AoO but not the actual type of spell.

Since there is no Verbal or Somatic component there is not way for an adjacent person to know what spell is being prepared (Spellcraft requires either a verbal or somatic to use that skill to Identify a spell being cast).



So....imho, In the case of Detect evil and ALFA.....Mr. Friendly Paladin simply has to emote *squints tight eyed at the black robed priest, scrutinizing him closely with intensity*

Mr. Black Robed Priest has 18 seconds until he's pretty much pegged.......and only 6 seconds until he's got at least some suspicion (or someone around him has some suspicion) as the first round "presence of evil" pings back positive.


Once again, I recommend alignment masking for evil PCs/NPCs.