The NWN1 platform - changing customs and rules

[Nalo Jade]

And to that point BB...

The first step I suppose would be to find an HDM willing to test any of these experiments.

I can help with NWConnections for any "event" related test...

But without the support of at least one HDM all of this dialogue becomes moot.

Is there an HDM that is willing to stick their neck out to try any of these ideas?

[Zelknolf]

My own concerns are less about CvC/grief, and more about quality. I have checked out other PW projects, and there's a wide range of good and (IMO) bad players out there. I've seen a bard PC in some Dales town or other slowly rattle off the lyrics to Evanescence's "Broken." I've been in the middle of talking with a PC, call him "Drewel" for the sake of argument, who wants to go out in the woods to hunt goblins, I reluctantly agree, and it's "BRB I'm logging in w/ alt Druid" and "Drewel" vanishes in front of me, but another "Drewel" in slightly different clothes, and apparently Druid levels, appears elsewhere in town and then runs into whatever building I was at. I've seen DMs run out, set up a goblin camp, then log back in with their PC to lead a band of other PCs to knock over the gobbos that he just set up, like bowling pins, getting his PC some loots and xp in the process. There are a lot of projects out there, and quality really, really varies.

It may be that a wide open door, without some form of interaction/mentoring right behind it, would be ugly.

I would add to this that if a player doesn't feel like progressing or the offense is bad enough, we still have ban sticks (and I, for one, would never allow the beforementioned goblin bowler or the multiple-copies-of-the-same-toon character on my server again. I would hope that Chamu/Lego/Vald/Castano are of the same mind there.) and we can use those ban sticks to shoo off the very bad players that I believe are a source of fear on the quality front. I would hope, at least, that we can tolerate, if not appreciate, the "bad" players who simply aren't talented at role playing and differentiate them from the "bad" players who are genuinely not trying to role play. It seems that our examples of things gone awry are mostly from the second group, and I can say in response to the complaints of the former that current ALFA members role play in ways that damage - if not break - immersion. It's certainly not from malice or apathy; it's just that most people can't write a round character, most people can't weed out ambiguity, and most people have more of a spotty knowledge (and less of a complete knowledge) of language use in our cobbled-together fantasy world. Which is sensible! It's a game, not a job, right? (and hell, our few people who're highly informed on the canon can say what a mess that all is. Quickly, anyone know if a person who uses chemicals to heal people is an herbalist, an apothecary, or a pharmacist in FR? )

My point is mostly a "We all do the 'bad' stuff too." sort. The desire to role play and a pattern of getting better at it would be enough for me, and I think we can achieve that with a conversation opening up on login that says "We're an immersive role playing world. Please role play. Here are our three big sticking points: 1) Do not take in-character actions with out-of-character motivation. 2) Don't run. 3) Mark all out-of-character commentary with ((double parenthesis)) or //comment lines."

[Nalo Jade]

*pokes Zelk*

Are you volunteering to vanguard any of these ideas on WD...

It actually would be quite fitting...

Having an NWC event centered around the revival of the "Old girl" would be a perfect reason to bring in as many new players as possible with a sizable DM front to watch them...plenty of Beta-testing could occur with that sort of "event".

[JaydeMoon]

Calls for change:

• DM where you play:
  • NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • FanaticusIncendi
      • Keryn
      • Brokenbone
      • Zelknolf
      • Nalo Jade
      • Psycho_Leo
      • OldGrayRogue
      • JaydeMoon
      • Toxsyn
      • Chamu
      • Learet (With DMA and PA review)
    • No
      • Ksiel
      • kmj
  • Not NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • Swift
    • No
      • NickD
      • Veilan
  • ALFA Activity Unknown
    • Yes
      • Karvon
    • No
      • No Detractors
  • Not ALFA Active
    • Yes
      • Rotku (On his pilgrimage)
      • Mulu (Might become active if this changed)
      • Alynn (But will be back in NWN1 as soon as computer woes fixed)
    • No
      • No Detractors
• Multiple PCs:
  • NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • Hollyfant
      • FanticusIncendi
      • Brokenbone (2d PC)
      • Zelknolf (Campaign PCs)
      • Psycho_Leo (2d PC)
      • Ksiel
      • Nalo Jade
      • OldGrayRogue
      • JaydeMoon
      • Toxsyn
      • Chamu
      • Arkan
      • kmj (No PCs share campaign)
    • No
      • Keryn
      • Leareth
  • Not NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • No Supporters
    • No
      • NickD
      • Veilan
  • ALFA Activity Unknown
    • Yes
      • Karvon
    • No
      • No Detractors
  • Not ALFA Active
    • Yes
      • Rotku (On his pilgrimage)
      • Mulu (Might become active if this changed)
      • Alynn (But will be back in NWN1 as soon as computer woes fixed)
      • No
        • No Detractors
• Start Above Level 1:
  • NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • FanaticusIncendi (Any level)
      • Keryn (High as level 3)
      • Brokenbone (High as 3d, maybe 4th)
      • Zelknolf (Campaign PCs)
      • Nalo Jade (Start Level 2 for everybody)
      • Psycho_Leo (High as 3d, maybe 4th)
      • Ksiel (High as level 3)
      • OldGrayRogue
      • JaydeMoon
      • Toxsyn
      • Chamu
      • Arkan (at least level 2 or 3)
      • kmj (player choice 1-3, DM choice 4-8)
      • Leareth (as high as level 5)
    • No
      • No detractors
  • Not NWN1 Active
    • Yes
      • NickD (High as level 3)
      • No
        • Veilan
    • ALFA Activity Unknown
      • Yes
        • Karvon
      • No
        • No Detractors
    • Not ALFA Active
      • Yes
        • Mulu (Might become active is changed)
        • Alynn (But will be back in NWN1 as soon as computer woes fixed)
      • No
        • Rotku (On his Pilgrimage)

Total:

• DM Where you play:
  • Votes for: 16
  • Votes against: 4
  • Active Votes for: 11
  • Active Votes against: 2
• Multiple PCs:
  • Votes for: 17
  • Votes against: 4
  • Active Votes for: 13
  • Active Votes against: 2
• Start above level 1:
  • Votes for: 18
  • Votes against: 2
  • Active Votes for: 14
  • Active Votes against: 0

Active NWN1 Players who voted:

• FanaticusIncendi
• Keryn
• Brokenbone
• Zelknolf
• Nalo Jade
• Psycho_Leo
• OldGrayRogue
• JaydeMoon
• Ksiel
• Toxsyn
• Chamu
• Arkan Bladesinger
• kmj
• Leareth

Active NWN1 Players missing from the tally:

• Rusty
• Misty
• DavidCurtisJr
• Cornelius
• Senor T
• DerekDrygon
• Curmudgeon
• Paazin
• Jody Hamilton
• Stephen Hamilton
• Soapie
• Peterdin
• Valdimir
• Legionaire
• Viigas

It is entirely likely that I missed a few people.

It is entirely likely that someone above feels they belong in a different category. If you were put in a category besides NWN1Active and feel this is a mistake, please say so, let me know when the last time you logged in to an NWN1 server and did any appreciable RP.

[Nalo Jade]

Nice list dude... you have entirely too much time, share the wealth and give me some...

Karvon is an active player in the OathBound Campaign.

And he was for multiple PCs as well.

Other NWN1 players ... just in the Oathbound campaign.

danielmn = I can not remember but is active on NWN2 as well.
Ithildur = No reponde'
Hungry Crow = No reponde'
Steelnyte = my brother and I know he would support this, and make a second PC besides his campaign PC.
Dogar = No reponde'
Prvt. Bob = Supported the DMs being able to start a PC at higher level for campaigns (in a past thread)

Other not in the campaign...

Hollyfant (though he is lonely because he won't move to the US.)

And I would be cool with starting as high as level 3 ... if there were "incentives" for starting lower, some people like building the PC and I don't think they should be "penalized" for wanting to start lower.

[edit: But would like Campaign PCs to start at a level approved by HDMs ]

May be worth noting who is active in both platforms and essentially has 2 PCs by virtue of platform availability. Some folks like myself simply cannot do NWN2.

[Rotku]

Heh, nicely compiled list, Jadye. Sums it up nicely. I would, however, put a bit of weight in those who aren´t currently active. I know myself (and Mulu, it seems, if some changes are made) are planning on returning to NWN1 at some stage in the near future. Anyway, it would be nice to get the opinion of the other active players - maybe even personally send them a PM - before such a big change as this is made to the game play.

[Arkan Bladesinger]

Les opinions. ( Active NWN1 DM&Player, (semi)Active NWN2 player)

DMs cannot play where they DM.

In principle I would be against this. However, as things stand now it wouldn´t be a big thing to me as I´d be inclined to trust those actively DM´ng NWN1 right now to handle this responsibly. Myself, wouldn´t DM where I play, but would gladly build if need arose. Don´t know if that´s yes or no. Guess it´s not definitively either and any case shold be HDM approved.

Players are only allowed one PC at a time.

I´d be inclined to allow campaign char and ad-hoc char. Or different chars in different campaigns. Or whatever. With the condition mentioned somewhere above answers that these were never to have conflicts of interests/share a same sandbox. Personally, it´s quite enough or even too much for me to DM in Sembia, have a campaign char in Moonshaes and an "ad-hoc" char in TSM2. Definitely wouldn´t make any more chars to stir the soup I call brains, but if someone can consentrate on 5 different chrs in 5 different places... Heck, good for them if it´s good for everyone else, too.

PCs must start at level 1.

At first I was against changing this, but having thought it further with campaigns I´d leave it to DM jurisdiction. I wouldn´t see much point in starting an 8th lvl campaign with new chars, but if you have one ongoing for a long time allowing new PC with close-to-comparative lvl wouldn´t be a bad idea if one of the party dies etc. This would, of course, mean that if a DM states it´s a lvl1 campaign, it is so. It might be hard to draw a line between campaigns and semi-campaigns, which are what NWN1 right now offers here, but one distinction would be that a campaign be a "closed one" aka no ad-hoc unless DM says so and no playing in other campaigns with that char. In regards of ad-hoc I´m a bit divided, but with numbers we have now not especially against starting at 2nd or 3rd.

I would be quite wary of big opening of doors, though. Many reasons mentioned before, but one very big reason would be that with current DM numbers/activity we wouldn´t even be ready for such a move to make everyone happy. New/more players is always good, but not if we cannot support them and burn the DM´s currently comfortable with their campaign/semi-campaign slots in the process. So treading with caution with big changes, even if welcome, would be counseled.

[oldgrayrogue]

As to opening up the servers I disagree with this. One of the reasons I support multiple PCs and player/DMs is because we are a password protected server with an application process that screens applicants. As a result I think the vast majority of our members are primarily interested in RP, and can be trusted not to meta with multiples or if they DM and play etc. I have played on a few open servers and find the PGers to be huge spoilers to immersion and to getting any kind of real story going. So that is a big NO vote to doing away with apps. I think a relaxation of the rules proposed in this thread would increase player numbers without doing away with or softening the app process.

[Chamu]

I personally support these concepts and would be willing to use NC as a test bed for them.

[Swift]

I find the assertion that those not currently active with NWN1 should have their opinions automatically weighted lower on whatever scale you are using. There are a variety of reasons why people have stopped using NWN1, the most obvious being DM coverage. I do still have a NWN1 character and do still occasionally log in (twice in the last week, gasp!).

Aside from that everyone here was active at some stage, and realizes that NWN1 still means alot to the project. Separating them on a "Well, you dont actually play now so your thoughts, while cute, don't count for much" basis isn't going to give you the accurate picture you want. Maybe the people aren't active for precisely the reasons we are debating?

[Keryn]

HMM Im not a fan of Dms playing where thet DM, I would support it in only one condition.

IF we allow people to have two PCs, one for campaigns and another to play ad hoc style, DMs would only get the campaign PC.

Why? Because they only play under DM eye, so they can hardly cheat!!

The rest i agree with most, but I would like to focus how important would be to be able to have two PCs, one for campings and one for ad hoc play.

and looking at that list... I dont see why are we still discussing something most if not all agree with. ALFA is not what it used to be, it needs to change...

[zicada]

I find the assertion that those not currently active with NWN1 should have their opinions automatically weighted lower on whatever scale you are using. There are a variety of reasons why people have stopped using NWN1, the most obvious being DM coverage. I do still have a NWN1 character and do still occasionally log in (twice in the last week, gasp!).

Aside from that everyone here was active at some stage, and realizes that NWN1 still means alot to the project. Separating them on a "Well, you dont actually play now so your thoughts, while cute, don't count for much" basis isn't going to give you the accurate picture you want. Maybe the people aren't active for precisely the reasons we are debating?

Yup, many of us have probably played NWN1 in ALFA longer than some of these proponents have even been members...

That said, the NWN HDMs will ultimately have a big say in this. The admin body may find that some of these issues are important enough to warrant change and rewrite the current system to allow the HDM's to choose for example.
It's important to give every NWN1 player a voice in this though. There aren't that many anyway currently. Based on Jayde's list earlier (good job btw) it's clear that a minority rather than the NWN1 group as a whole, are working for these changes.

[ayergo]

That said, the NWN HDMs will ultimately have a big say in this. The admin body may find that some of these issues are important enough to warrant change and rewrite the current system to allow the HDM's to choose for example.

And just to be clear i'm gathering opinions of the HDMs on the HDM forum. If we did do it, it would likely be only on a case-by-case basis.

That being said, i would like to point out something that many have forgotten in days of ALFA yore. Some servers (particularly the much revered TVS) would have the DMs use the player client to better facilitate their DMing. This means they would log in with the player client (and the knowledge of their team) to interact/DM with the other PCs. Many times the PCs were not even aware that this was happening. It became a great way to keep tabs on the server and the players in an un-obtrusive way. These characters would NEVER travel to other servers though and at all times they were in fact a DM and always kept their team in the loop about who was who.

This may be a better solution overall to think on.

[Nalo Jade]

I personally support these concepts and would be willing to use NC as a test bed for them.

Awesome sauce!

@ NWN2 -vs- NWN1 ... can't we all just get along?

So Chamu, will you be crafting your own proposal based in part off this dialogue?

How can I help?

[JaydeMoon]

I find the assertion that those not currently active with NWN1 should have their opinions automatically weighted lower on whatever scale you are using.

How do you find the assertion? Fragment FTW!

Just kidding, I can take an educated guess.

I'd like to point out that I'm not making an assertion, if you take one away, perhaps you should look into how YOU feel about it.

I merely separated those who are currently involved, those who aren't, those I don't know about (which I'll change), and those who mostly just make noise here. That LAST is an assertion and I'm kidding.

The decision makers can themselves determine how much weight to give to each name and perhaps, if you feel the need, you can implore them to consider your opinion more heavily than you believe is implied by the list.

Same response to Rotku. I did try to imply that both Rot and Mulu might be returning, either just because they WILL be (Rot) or because some positive change is effected (Mulu).

It's important to give every NWN1 player a voice in this though. There aren't that many anyway currently. Based on Jayde's list earlier (good job btw) it's clear that a minority rather than the NWN1 group as a whole, are working for these changes.

Do not confuse silence as either support or detraction. Some of the people on that list would do one or the other except they just don't want to deal with getting on ALFA's forums and involve themselves.

Generally it is a minority of people who work to represent many. Representative democracy, if you will. Of 5 people who think one way, only 1 will actually do the paperwork and organize the rallies.

So while it's clear that a minority are working on these changes, that says absolutely nothing about what it means that the list above has several names of folks who have not spoken. Further, I'd like to point out that the minority listed above isn't a marginal sort of minority. 41% actually voted. Of that 41%, more than 90% of those vote for the changes. It would be interesting to see what the others vote, but abstention is a vote neither way.

changed and/or added the post based on new posts and the following very short chat with Toxsyn:

me: Do you support:
DMing where you play, multiple PCs, and starting at higher than level 1 for ALFA?
Toxsyn: yes