Fox gives McCain an 82% win over Obama in the latest debate

[Mulu]

He won't go to meet troops without his cameras and masters of PR

In July, McCain accused Obama of skipping his visit to a military hospital in Germany because he was told he couldn't bring reporters and video cameras. McCain ran an ad saying: "Seems the Pentagon wouldn't allow him to bring cameras." But when pressed to provide evidence that Obama had canceled the visit for this reason, McCain's campaign could not support their claim — and media reports found no evidence that Obama had ever planned to bring media with him.

That's strike one.

just as he refuses to remove the bracelet and chooses to against the wishes of the mother.

The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" when Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama mentioned during Friday's debate the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that Obama remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

Jopek criticized Internet reports suggesting Obama, D-Ill., exploited her son for political purposes.

"I don't understand how people can take that and turn it into some garbage on the Internet," she said.

They are called right wing nut jobs for a reason ma'am. That's strike two.

Obama is politics as unusual. Mulu, do have anything to say about the "para-military civilian national security force."?

Yes, the only references I can find on it are all right-wing nutjob sites, and I propose that in the future all such sites end with .rwnj to distinguish them from the rest of the Internet. And that's strike three, you're out. Maybe you should take up a new hobby, like making displays at Creationist Museums. Those people don't fact check, so they should be right up your alley.

[Mulu]

On the Veep debate, I thought it was much like the Presidential debate, they both did fine. I thought Palin came off as creepy when she started talking about Joe's dead wife getting her reward in heaven, though I'm sure her base appreciated it. Of course, that resulted in Joe choking up when he started talking about losing his wife and infant daughter, and since Palin had raised the subject first he certainly can't be criticized for it.

Overall I think the debate was a push, which I suppose is technically a win for Palin given that she was expected to bomb. It will be interesting to see if the debate has any effect at all on the polls. I suspect people are paying a lot more attention to the bailout vote than the VP debate. It's passed the Senate, with McCain voting for the earmark Christmas tree (already broke that promise...) the House votes tomorrow.

Best quote of the debate: "McCain is the one we need to leave.... mhhmm lead." - Palin

The first polls of the Vice-Presidential debate are already in. A CNN poll run by Opinion Research shows that 51% of the voters think Joe Biden did the best job at the debate and 36% thought Sarah Palin did the best job. As to beating the expectations (which both parties were trying furiously to set as low as possible), both did. Eighty-four percent said Palin did better than expected and 64% said Biden did better than expected. But debating skills and beating artificially low expectations don't really matter. What matters is whether the candidate is qualified to be President should the need arise. On this score, Biden clearly won as 87% said Biden is qualified to be President and only 42% said Palin is.

CBS also did a quickie poll among uncommitted voters. In this one, 46% said Biden won and only 21% said Palin won. In terms of being knowledgeable about the issues, 98% think Biden is and 66% think Palin is. On the key question of whether the candidate could be an effective President, 91% said Biden could be and only 44% said Palin could be, similar to the CNN poll.

[Nekulor]

Mulu, would hell freeze over if I jumped party lines and voted for Obama?

[Killthorne]

Mulu, would hell freeze over if I jumped party lines and voted for Obama?

With Mulu, there is no hell to freeze over so...

JUMP!

~Killy~

[Mulu]

[Grand Fromage]

Fuck parties, vote for whoever you think will do the best job.

[HATEFACE]

He won't go to meet troops without his cameras and masters of PR

In July, McCain accused Obama of skipping his visit to a military hospital in Germany because he was told he couldn't bring reporters and video cameras. McCain ran an ad saying: "Seems the Pentagon wouldn't allow him to bring cameras." But when pressed to provide evidence that Obama had canceled the visit for this reason, McCain's campaign could not support their claim — and media reports found no evidence that Obama had ever planned to bring media with him.

That's strike one.

just as he refuses to remove the bracelet and chooses to against the wishes of the mother.

The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" when Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama mentioned during Friday's debate the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that Obama remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

Jopek criticized Internet reports suggesting Obama, D-Ill., exploited her son for political purposes.

"I don't understand how people can take that and turn it into some garbage on the Internet," she said.

They are called right wing nut jobs for a reason ma'am. That's strike two.

Obama is politics as unusual. Mulu, do have anything to say about the "para-military civilian national security force."?

Yes, the only references I can find on it are all right-wing nutjob sites, and I propose that in the future all such sites end with .rwnj to distinguish them from the rest of the Internet. And that's strike three, you're out. Maybe you should take up a new hobby, like making displays at Creationist Museums. Those people don't fact check, so they should be right up your alley.

1. He didn't meet with troops regardless Mulu. It wouldn't be possible for the McCain campaign to provide proof because he was over seas at the time and it's highly doubtful that Obama would come out and say "I didn't go see the troops because there wasn't a photo op." I suspect, though, that he didn't meet with the troops based upon not having cameras avialable to him.

2. The request for removal came after blogs started making a big fuss over Obama wearing it. That doesn't make what those people did right but it doesn't make Obama right for refusing her wishes and keeping it on. That was her her son, Mulu. She should have say on how to honor him.

3. There is video proof of Obama saying that he will have a civilian national security branch as well funded as the military. Unless you want to deny he doesn't own that mouth of his, well that's up to you. I provided that video on the other page of this topic. I wanted your commentary on it but that's too much to ask from a man-child like yourself.

For now, I leave you with this.

[HATEFACE]

WTF?!

[ç i p h é r]

If that's an organized program (and not some random video posted by a bunch of Obama worshipping nutjobs), it's more than a little disturbing.

Interesting law suit filed by a Clinton supporter. I read through most of it and this one part caught my attention:

Plaintiff faxed a copy of the complaint to Obama, the DNC and FEC on August 22, 2008 prior to the hearing on the TRO before this Honorable Court. Defendants were further served by personal service on September 4, 2008. Neither the DNC nor Obama have supplied any type of proof of Obama’s citizenship status and/or eligibility to serve as President of the United States. Instead, they waited until the last hour and filed their Motion to Dismiss.

Plaintiff has asked for a simple resolution. Plaintiff has asked that Obama supply a genuine certified copy of his original long version “vault” Birth Certificate and a certified copy of his Oath of Allegiance and/or Certificate of Citizenship. If in fact Obama can prove his “natural born” citizenship status, which he cannot, then he has not been prejudiced in anyway, but instead Plaintiff has been protected and his civil rights secured. However, if Obama is unable to supply said documentation, then he needs to withdrawal his candidacy, again which will eliminate Plaintiff’s deprivations and instill Plaintiff’s constitutionally protected safeguards and rights.

Is this still working its way through the courts or has it been dismissed?

Guessing that even if Obama's eligibility is contestable, the political pressure from the Obama campaign, DNC, and Congressional Democratic leadership is too much to overcome. That's the beauty of government. They can always find a way to bend the rules for themselves.

[HATEFACE]

If that's an organized program (and not some random video posted by a bunch of Obama worshipping nutjobs), it's more than a little disturbing.

Interesting law suit filed by a Clinton supporter. I read through most of it and this one part caught my attention:

Plaintiff faxed a copy of the complaint to Obama, the DNC and FEC on August 22, 2008 prior to the hearing on the TRO before this Honorable Court. Defendants were further served by personal service on September 4, 2008. Neither the DNC nor Obama have supplied any type of proof of Obama’s citizenship status and/or eligibility to serve as President of the United States. Instead, they waited until the last hour and filed their Motion to Dismiss.

Plaintiff has asked for a simple resolution. Plaintiff has asked that Obama supply a genuine certified copy of his original long version “vault” Birth Certificate and a certified copy of his Oath of Allegiance and/or Certificate of Citizenship. If in fact Obama can prove his “natural born” citizenship status, which he cannot, then he has not been prejudiced in anyway, but instead Plaintiff has been protected and his civil rights secured. However, if Obama is unable to supply said documentation, then he needs to withdrawal his candidacy, again which will eliminate Plaintiff’s deprivations and instill Plaintiff’s constitutionally protected safeguards and rights.

Is this still working its way through the courts or has it been dismissed?

Guessing that even if Obama's eligibility is contestable, the political pressure from the Obama campaign, DNC, and Congressional Democratic leadership is too much to overcome. That's the beauty of government. They can always find a way to bend the rules for themselves.

As of Sept 29th, I believe it was/is working its way through the courts. I don't know if it has been dismissed or not.

True enough but at least some good will come from democrats who choose to question their leaders. Though it doesn't help that blind ideologues like Mulu and others hinder this and attempt to defuse these obvious issues about Obama. All these 'quirks' from Obama's past add up and you get a clear scary picture of what the man is all about.

[Swift]

Though it doesn't help that blind ideologues like Mulu and others hinder this and attempt to defuse these obvious issues about Obama. All these 'quirks' from Obama's past add up and you get a clear scary picture of what the man is all about.

As opposed to you, who is just as blind, just for the other guy, which is just obviously more helpful

[Mulu]

1. He didn't meet with troops regardless Mulu.

But not for the reasons you stated, so you are wrong. Still strike 1.

2. The request for removal came after blogs started making a big fuss over Obama wearing it. That doesn't make what those people did right but it doesn't make Obama right for refusing her wishes and keeping it on. That was her her son, Mulu. She should have say on how to honor him.

She said she wanted him to wear it, and was pleased he wore it to the debate, as the quote shows. Still strike 2.

3. There is video proof of Obama saying that he will have a civilian national security branch as well funded as the military.

Since there is no information on this other that right-wing demagoguery, I am left with speculation (which is what they are doing). In other words, he never really explained his idea. I assume this is much the same as the call for a civilian corps made by many Republican Congressmen in the past, the idea being that young people should serve their country for a year or two, sort of like Israel but with a civilian option rather than a pure military option. It would cost a fortune, of course, but whether it would be a good idea or not would be dependent on its implementation. There is nothing nefarious about a civilian corps, that is after all what the Peace Corps is currently, on a voluntary basis. Alleging that he's trying to make the Hitler youth is just retarded, which makes it still strike 3.

[Mulu]

As for the natural citizen stuff, I thought it was McCain being born in Panama that was the latest "not a citizen" conspiracy theory?

The only person who knows for sure where Obama was born is his deceased mother. Maybe Palin can recommend a good spirit medium from her church.

[HATEFACE]

1. He didn't meet with troops regardless Mulu.

But not for the reasons you stated, so you are wrong. Still strike 1.

2. The request for removal came after blogs started making a big fuss over Obama wearing it. That doesn't make what those people did right but it doesn't make Obama right for refusing her wishes and keeping it on. That was her her son, Mulu. She should have say on how to honor him.

She said she wanted him to wear it, and was pleased he wore it to the debate, as the quote shows. Still strike 2.

3. There is video proof of Obama saying that he will have a civilian national security branch as well funded as the military.

Since there is no information on this other that right-wing demagoguery, I am left with speculation (which is what they are doing). In other words, he never really explained his idea. I assume this is much the same as the call for a civilian corps made by many Republican Congressmen in the past, the idea being that young people should serve their country for a year or two, sort of like Israel but with a civilian option rather than a pure military option. It would cost a fortune, of course, but whether it would be a good idea or not would be dependent on its implementation. There is nothing nefarious about a civilian corps, that is after all what the Peace Corps is currently, on a voluntary basis. Alleging that he's trying to make the Hitler youth is just retarded, which makes it still strike 3.

1. Wrong about what? The fact he didn't meet the troops or the reason he didn't meet the troops. Speculation does not mean I am wrong. It merely means I question the reasoning behind Obama's judgement. I have a right to do that.

2. The mother's displeasure came from Obama refusing to take off the bracelet after the debate because of internet blogs. She requested that it be removed. He kept wearing it. I speculate that for Obama dead troops makes for good PR and further bolsters his argument, at least for his political camp. Good for him if he wore it in earnest. In the end like many things of Obama, we just will never know.

3. I did not allege that he is creating a hitler youth. All I know is that he suggests a civilian force that is armed and well funded. If he is creating a Peace Corp as you speculate. Then why need the hardware and budget of the US military? The military budget is roughly 515.4 Bil the 'peace corp' whose intentions are more benign then Obama's ;p have a budget of around 200 mil. Again I ask what purpose does Obama's peace corps serve? If his intentions are malicious, as outspoken you are, I'm sure you'll be the first of the disenfranchised. Hey, just look at Cuba.

So, I will allege that Obama has marxist teachings and influences from various people in his life. Because Obama never really had a dad and felt 'left out' of the 'black community' he sought answers. The profile fits.

As for the video of those students pledging their fealty to Obama was really silly and the school head was of course fired. Good. I had enough of that type of indocrination in the classroom. Go back to learning your english grammar, science, and mathamatics kids. Strive for yourself not Obama.

[Mulu]

Speculation does not mean I am wrong.

Faulty speculation does, especially when you present it not as speculation but as fact.

Let's demonstrate.

It merely means I question the reasoning behind Obama's judgement. I have a right to do that.

You didn't say "why did he cancel?" That's questioning. You didn't even say, "Perhaps it was because he couldn't bring in the media." That's speculation. You said, "He won't go to meet troops without his cameras and masters of PR," an affirmative statement, and you have zero support for the claim. That's called fabricating. Do you have *any* evidence to back up the claim? If not, it's a knowing fabrication, in other words a lie. You have no reason to believe the claim is true, other than perhaps wishful thinking. More to the point, you are just repeating the fabricated claims of right wing nut jobs on blogs. Try questioning what you read in blogs rather than accepting the statements at face value. By now you should realize those statements are largely fallacious. If you don't, well, guess you're just a sucker.

2. The mother's displeasure came from Obama refusing to take off the bracelet after the debate because of internet blogs. She requested that it be removed. He kept wearing it.

Do you even know this for a fact? The only actual quote from the mother I could find made it pretty clear she liked the fact he wore it to the debate. If she has since changed her mind, and done so publicly, it seems pretty certain that he would then take it off. Again, don't believe every accusation you read.

I speculate that for Obama dead troops makes for good PR and further bolsters his argument, at least for his political camp.

Since McCain also wears such a bracelet I guess dead troops are good for him too. Or maybe they were both just capitalizing on the grief requests of mothers.

In the end like many things of Obama, we just will never know.

Oooh, scary! I guess if you lack insight you replace it with unfounded allegations and fear.

3. I did not allege that he is creating a hitler youth. All I know is that he suggests a civilian force that is armed and well funded.

Then why are you against it? I have a very hard time believing he called for a civilian force with the same armaments as the military. At that point, it would *be* a military force. I find it far more likely he called for the same funding, and it would need it if the intent was to put every 18 year old into a 2 year service program.

Again, this is an *old* idea. Heck, Heinlein wrote about it. I personally am against such a program. I think if you are going to be a doctor or a lawyer or go into business or in general already have a career plan than such a program would do nothing other than delay your career. I also don't see military or civilian governmental service as necessarily better for the country or really in *any* way superior as, say, going to medical school or law school or engineering school or starting a business. Kicking around on government service projects for 2 years on the tax payer's dole doesn't sound terribly productive to me. Even if the kids have to volunteer their time, you still have the costs of feeding them and housing them and supervising them, etc. And what would they *do* exactly? They would have few if any skills, and by the time they were trained to be good at something their 2 years would be up. He would basically be trying to make a combination National Guard / Peace Corps that is mandatory. When we're not at war or facing a national disaster, the National Guard mostly just sits around doing nothing. Well, they train I guess, but they train to be deployed when needed, not just for the sake of training.

It's usually Republicans coming up with this daft idea, so I'm not sure why Obama plugged it. Then again, he does consider Lieberman to be his mentor, and Lieberman *loves* the idea (it is done in Israel after all), so that's probably where he got it. Given how long the idea has been around and how members of both parties have supported it here and there, I just don't understand how this rationally translates into an accusation of anything, other than maybe having an expensive and unnecessary idea that is mostly supported by Republicans. I guarantee you that when Obama becomes President, if he pitches this idea the cost issue alone will kill it. And think of the drain on the economy by removing them from the workforce. Who would flip my burgers?

So, I will allege that Obama has marxist teachings and influences from various people in his life. Because Obama never really had a dad and felt 'left out' of the 'black community' he sought answers. The profile fits.

Like you, or the rwnj websites you read, know anything about it. As for school indoctrination, well...

Now *that's* scary!