Sug. If death player roll new PC 2 lvls lower than party?

[bartleby]

Heh just wanted to say sorry for being over dramatic above : ) dont get time to play any more have to be some where

[Stefan]

This is the topic I was thinking to bring up, years ago.

Based on my, now several years long, observations, Nalo is talking about something that is an issue without a single doubt. He sum it pretty good as well (discouraged DMless play, partially scared DMs, demotivated players after they lose long-term PC, etc). But since I don't see solution to this problem, I never brought the topic up. I am not very fond to idea of adding any leveling related rules in attempt to fix this problem and I wouldn't go that far to say that current system creates illusion of permadeath. Death is still very much real, due to numerous reasons. In general, this flaw in the system is acceptable to me, compared to all goodies. But I can understand if it is not to someone else.

The best way to deal with this problem, at least to some extent, is to allow resurrections as those were allowed in the hey days of ALFA1 (PCs resurrected ICly for free if such is will of DM, etc). Speaking of which...

...since when ALFA became so tightened regarding resurrections?? It is over six months since ALFA2 went live and I haven't heard for a single case of resurrection. Unlike in ALFA1, no NPC cleric, that I saw, offers service of resurrection as well (despite that it would be expensive and that it would be hardly used, it does send a bad message). Granted, before ALFA2 went live, I was absent for almost two years and if you have tightened this whole matter extremely in the meantime by some rules, I think you are heading in wrong direction.

On the other hand, whoever got idea and implemented system where PCs cannot go below -6 per one strike, should get little medal for inventiveness. A step in right direction, much unlike that silly idea about mutilation system... so called "sticky finger of death"... seriously proposed back in 2004, if my memory serves me well. Idea that was threatening to make all those mentioned problems even worse.

Not much. He'll have to go find some other equally low-level PCs to adventure with, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as a new player would.

ALFA is designed to be a persestant world first and foremost im afraid. When its working as designed there is no need to worry about what happens if a char dies because another one (mid range in levels) can step in over time and take on their role and move the story along. The Player of the dead PC goes back to playing a low level char that has low level quests and sooner or later moves back up to higher level quests and so on and so forth.

Quite true. A world where DM creates the plots, acts like completely (lawful) neutral referee at a typical soccer game, etc. Only problem is, it is possible only in ideal surrounding where level 1 PC receives same QUALITY (however you understand this word) of fun as level 10 PC. And lets just say that not even ALFA1 in its hey days has achieved adequate degree of that ideal, generally speaking. There were oases inside ALFA which were heading in the right direction to cross the magic line and achieve this but those didn't last long enough.

[Mayhem]

I am saying that the PCs lose their cleric of 15th level...what is a 1st level cleric supposed to do to help?

Not much. He'll have to go find some other equally low-level PCs to adventure with, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as a new player would.

Except in ALFA that falls over virtually every single time due to timezones and our small player base, particularly if your not able to play with americans. If my character dies and i can't work a new one into the Aussie group, i am, for all intents and purposes, completely f*cked for playing in ALFA until Thangorn TPKs the rest of the group so they are all back at level 1, simply due to the fact that when i can play usually only sees the aussies around.

No, sorry, you are still in EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION a brand new player is in.

You are, in fact, advocating treating long term players as "special", over and above newcomers. Creating an elite inner core of players who will never have to survive level one again, because of the sole virtue of having played longer than the other guys.

Maybe brand new player X is also in your time zone, and is an excellent RPer, and he'd love to join your L15 band, by virtue of having 12 levels given to him free and gratis. Why do you get preferential treatment and not him.

In fact, (if you are running with the assumption that L1s cannot adventure with Highers) this proposal just makes it harder for the new guy to find somebody to play with, as there will never be any long term ALFANs starting at his level - they'll all be jumping straight back into the high level fun, leaving poor Joe Newb to slog through the lower levels alone.

[JaydeMoon]

Personally, if the new player could only be on during those times, I'd have him roll up a PC that fit with the group, if we were to institute some sort of policy like this.

Just like if I was running PnP and a new guy showed up. No preferential treatment. Just getting people into the game.

I'd rather have players than not players, after all.

[Mayhem]

So lets have everyone start at level 10. Much easier for an L10 to hang out with an L15 than i is for an L1 to hang out with L6s.

Problem solved. Also solves the problem of LA races.

[Vendrin]

Works for me.

[NickD]

I have a suggestion similar to BB's suggestion. Although I'm a tad loathe to bring it up, because it reminds me a bit too much of my early days arguing for multiple PCs...

How about allow players to have multiple characters, but they can only have one over 3rd level. i.e., once a character reaches third, the player has to stop playing it until their main character dies.

I do prefer characters to start from 1st level. To me, it gives a clear beginning for their adventuring. But sometimes it can feel like a chore to go from a higher level to level 1 again, at least at level 3 characters are a bit more robust.

Cons: How to enforce? How to explain the absence of the backup characters? Multiple PCs.

*shrugs*

[Zelknolf]

Cons: How to enforce?

Maybe we don't stop 'em from playing; maybe we just don't validate any character but the main for levels. Not sure how that's rigged up in NWN2, but NWN1 already has the framework to make it enforce itself, unless a DM actively tried to subvert such a concept.

[JaydeMoon]

So lets have everyone start at level 10. Much easier for an L10 to hang out with an L15 than i is for an L1 to hang out with L6s.

Problem solved. Also solves the problem of LA races.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

Unless I want to run a campaign for level 6 PCs. Then it doesn't work. Oh, what ever shall we do?!?

It's problematic I know. I mean what if someone just makes a level 7 PC out the box to play with a level 10 group and then that level 7 PC CvCs your character Mayhem, that would totally suck. I know how much time you put into your NWN1 PC and how often you play him, after all.

[Mayhem]

So lets have everyone start at level 10. Much easier for an L10 to hang out with an L15 than i is for an L1 to hang out with L6s.

Problem solved. Also solves the problem of LA races.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

Unless I want to run a campaign for level 6 PCs. Then it doesn't work. Oh, what ever shall we do?!?

Exactly my point.

But sometimes it can feel like a chore to go from a higher level to level 1 again.

Yes it can, but the chore isn;'t the "lost my character" part, its the "I'm level 1 and must walk on eggshells if I am to see level 2 part."

Its just as much a chore for the new player as the old - moreso, perhaps, since the old player knows that ALFA can rock once he gets past these few weeks of tedious weakness.

So the whole issue isn't necessarily about skipping the lower levels, but about making Level 1 just as much fun to play as levels 3, 5, 10 etc.

Or, if we cannot do that (and I know some DMs and builders try very hard), we have to acknowledge that starting at a higher level is necessary, for old players AND new players alike.


[/quote]

[Mayhem]

It's problematic I know. I mean what if someone just makes a level 7 PC out the box to play with a level 10 group and then that level 7 PC CvCs your character Mayhem, that would totally suck. I know how much time you put into your NWN1 PC and how often you play him, after all.

Not sure what you are getting at, here. Are you suggesting that all experience of playing I spent building my PC up to L9 on TLR is irrelevant because I don't have time to play at the moment?

[Creslyn]

Believe he's saying the opposite. How would you feel if after all you've been through with that pc you get CvC'ed and killed by a level 8 who got rolled up yesterday?

[NickD]

Yes it can, but the chore isn;'t the "lost my character" part, its the "I'm level 1 and must walk on eggshells if I am to see level 2 part."

That's pretty much what I meant. And the bit with doing all the statics again. Not that the builders haven't done a good job with them, just that you've already done them half a dozen times before, but that's what one does to level up when one is level 1&2.

[Mayhem]

Believe he's saying the opposite. How would you feel if after all you've been through with that pc you get CvC'ed and killed by a level 8 who got rolled up yesterday?

Indeed - something that could happen whether that level 8er is a new ALFAN or one who "earned" his level 8 start simply by virtue of his old character hanging out with level 10s.

I'm highlighting the flaws in the original argument quite well, it would appear.

[Mayhem]

Yes it can, but the chore isn;'t the "lost my character" part, its the "I'm level 1 and must walk on eggshells if I am to see level 2 part."

That's pretty much what I meant. And the bit with doing all the statics again. Not that the builders haven't done a good job with them, just that you've already done them half a dozen times before, but that's what one does to level up when one is level 1&2.

Heh, except where the overloards have swept in and said "Statics? Leveling up without a DM? How dare, you try to make things fun at low levels, you accursed builder!"

Which I think was Rick's big beef on TSM - a shame, since as one of the early playtesters of TSM I have to say they were some excellent, fun statics with options well beyond the usual "take this thing here" or "go there and kill this thing" style that we often see.