Sug. If death player roll new PC 2 lvls lower than party?

[bartleby]

ALFA is designed to be a persestant world first and foremost im afraid. When its working as designed there is no need to worry about what happens if a char dies because another one (mid range in levels) can step in over time and take on their role and move the story along. The Player of the dead PC goes back to playing a low level char that has low level quests and sooner or later moves back up to higher level quests and so on and so forth.

The problem isnt the sytem the problem is that the DMs and players that were once there to support the system no longer are.

If we start to try to bend or change the rules to accomodate the situation and not the ideal we run the risk of damaging the ideal.

So we either fight to try to keep the system alive by attracting new players DMs and builders by what ever means necessary or give up on the experement that is ALFA.

[Nalo Jade]

Wow...

I didn't expect it to be a "give up on ALFA" ultimatum. I can see what you're saying B. A PW is different than a PnP campaign.

The ideal is not having "campaigns" but instead to have a flourishing living world that isn't "paused" when the scheduled game isn't being run. I think I may have been confused. I thought it was both.

I guess this adds more credence to the folks that would like to see NWN1 gone all together, since I do not see it ever attaining its level of activity in the past.

Of course one could say that if ALFA does not "evolve" to adapt to the situations it is presented then it is doomed to fail anyway.

I guess if DMs are "protecting" their players already, maybe I should just join up and protect mine...

It appears to be the only option I have.

>Scale the difficulty to ensure they will survive unless they do something really dumb.

>Run more RP only sessions that do not endanger the PCs. I already have intentions of having slower tempo RP sessions...so that's not a problem.

>Ensure that resurrection is available at the earliest opportunity.

<>But if after doing all that a player still dies and the party is too far ahead of them ... then it is just "over" for that player since they cannot adventure with the group as a 1st level PC.

Since there have been no supporters of this concept I will leave it alone.

Thanks for the input it was helpful for me to better understand the communities stance on this.

[Zelknolf]

<>But if after doing all that a player still dies and the party is too far ahead of them ... then it is just "over" for that player since they cannot adventure with the group as a 1st level PC.

Once again, I played a low-level character next to high levels. Hell, I did it when there was death magic left, right, and center. The sonuvabitch was part of the force that retook Myth Drannor (Why yes, mezzoloths do get cloudkill as a spell-like ability.) What's better is that he was level 7 before he got any bonuses to his fort saves (bought from a static merchant) and even was primarily a melee fighter from levels 5 - 7 (helping a clr 12 tank for the group), and was eventually taken out of play when I retired him to DM on SD (he did die once, I'll grant, but was able to be raised).

FanaticusIncendi has more a braggable story in that Tialanna survived to retirement. There's a sorcerer without any of those convenient survival spells (like cat's grace, endurance, mage armor and stoneskin) or feats (like dodge and toughness.)

I'd bet that if you asked, you'd get at least a dozen more contemporary stories, and probably forty more from the olden days of ALFA, when we had more and more powerful static baddies. It's very possible for a low-level character to adventure with the highbies. They'll get roughed up, and they're taking more of a chance than the highbies, but they can survive, and I think ALFA's history speaks to that.



I would also respond to "is it that much risk for the level 1" with "eh, maybe not, but it's more risk than the highbies." -- and that's enough to justify a difference in Quest XP awards, so sayeth our XP standards, in that they are, indeed, specific to each player. (the specific quote would be "DM XP is awarded individually, to each PC, and it is important that differences in the contribution of each PC, and the quality of their role-play are recognized with different awards." ... grumping about obsolete comma usage aside, it's pretty clear that we're considering individuals when it comes to the XP stick. Or at least that we agreed to upon joining the DM ranks.) Unless, of course, it's not more risk. But then your argument is totally moot, because you're saying them lowbies can adventure with the highbies and not be any more doomed than they are.

[FanaticusIncendi]

I guess if DMs are "protecting" their players already, maybe I should just join up and protect mine...

It appears to be the only option I have.

>Scale the difficulty to ensure they will survive unless they do something really dumb.

>Run more RP only sessions that do not endanger the PCs. I already have intentions of having slower tempo RP sessions...so that's not a problem.

>Ensure that resurrection is available at the earliest opportunity.

<>But if after doing all that a player still dies and the party is too far ahead of them ... then it is just "over" for that player since they cannot adventure with the group as a 1st level PC.

Next time I won't waste a half hour of my time writing a response filled with alternatives.

Why is it that people ask for input when their minds are already made-up? (hypothetical- do not answer) No one ever listens.

Carry on.

[Brokenbone]

While I have no illusions about it ever "passing" in ALFA, exploring options in one's own NWN campaigns like a buy-in at level X-2, with XXX goldpieces to gear up, all good.

Reminds me of a system that used to be suggested to players and DMs of Dark Sun, a "character tree" concept where you'd have four of your own PCs ready to go, and any time one of them levelled, you could "buy" a level for someone else on your tree, so long as at most it brought the other character no higher than "equal" with whichever PC had actually levelled. The idea was to make transition to a useful character very quick, if your active character ran out of water or fell over in a sea of silt and suffocated or something. Whether you neglected certain PCs on your "tree" was your problem (i.e., grooming only one replacement without thinking about the 3rd and 4th PCs on your tree might be bad, if the replacement got offed quickly as well).

...

Anyhow, as to ALFA's very small NWN1 community, I'd at least support something like starting at "up to level 3, if you want." Our servers are "on" 24/7 in terms of things like a power supply, but there is no game to be had outside of scheduling something with other players, or ideally, other players and a DM. There is no such thing anymore as someone wandering the length and breadth of ALFA for 30 hours a week "just because" (such as "just because I need a few goblins' worth of experience"), people log on to game with other people, and given the critically low density, that has to be by appointment. Knocking out the first two "formative" levels (if DMs / Players support it) such that joins to campaigns can be a little more seamless, I wouldn't see the harm. This isn't just for not dying to the first rat you see, but also having a reasonable chance of making some low DC skill rolls for non-combat RP stuff.

Again though, it's something that'd be unlikely to "pass", even if every single NWN1 regular player and DM were in support of it (all 25 of us, if that, heh).

Still, there's non-ALFA NWN1 games out there, probably a wide variety of ways to keep things fun despite other facets of the game (especially its thinning audience) changing.

[paazin]

There are a plethora of different styles and each DM has their own; if a player is more comfortable with a high-combat style with a high ratio of risk to reward, so be it. Our goal has always been immersion and high-quality RP, but we've always been supportive of various types of playstyles so long as they fit our main goals. If someone wishes to have his events filled with deadly combat, fine, that's his perogative. If another wishes to have no combat at all, that's also more than acceptable. The beauty of ALFA is all these groups can be flourish, and players can gravitate to the styles they prefer.

[Veilan]

Not presenting your players with genuine risk and possibility of failure is shortchanging them and cheating them out of a thrilling, real experience.

Nobody likes to lose a character. But ALFA is a community in which knowing you're a coddled toy-bunny that's not going to face any real risk is supposed to be even more irritating to the player.

Now as a pragmatical tip, Nalo, talk to Chamu - he's been quite able to run mixed-level parties, even in sessions involving heavy combat.

Try not to see the death of a character as a challenge of your control over the story - an absolute control that you are not even supposed to have as a DM in a PW like ALFA - but as an opportunity for dynamic and meaningful roleplay, probably involving the player's new character and his growing into the group (which may take a couple of sessions where there would be limited space for combat anyway).

You never know where the overall story goes - that's what makes it so interesting. Pre-determining the outcome or hinging it on the survival of all your characters may be good for a novel, but in ALFA that's a too extreme form of narrativism, and may well qualify as railroading (even though it's well meant ).

I find it cool though that you sought input and opinions on your problem, and I hope that some of the stuff people of differing viewpoints wrote here may actually end up being helpful to you and your players.

Cheers,

[FanaticusIncendi]

Brokenbone makes very reasonable points.

I would like to see admin give us NWN1 supporters flexibility in what we can do on this and other issues. To ignore the realities that BB points out and tell us "too bad, this is how it's always been so deal" is pretty much a slap in the face. It's that inflexibility that is strangling ALFA and is causing some of us to put the majority of our energy elsewhere.

[Nalo Jade]

Brokenbone makes very reasonable points.

I would like to see admin give us NWN1 supporters flexibility in what we can do on this and other issues. To ignore the realities that BB points out and tell us "too bad, this is how it's always been so deal" is pretty much a slap in the face. It's that inflexibility that is strangling ALFA and is causing some of us to put the majority of our energy elsewhere.

*shakes head*

wait you agree?

I fail at the internets...

Just because I am seeing a trend I would like to set to rest...

Nalo (me) is not a railroading DM bent on telling a novel he has written out.

Please don't tell the players in my campaign that are reading this thread ... but I don't have anything more than a vague idea of what the main goals will be...

Please stop creating some sort of synonym between me and this railroad concept.

I have never had a problem if a player died in a campaign to have them roll up a PC that was 2 levels lower than the lowest level party member.

It gets them back in the game in a meaniful way where they don't feel like the baby playing with the big kids. Sure I can set something up to make it fun for them... I was simply seeing if another option could be possible.

I understand its not possible.

I'm sorry that it appears that I do not listen...

I can hear everyone loud and clear. Thank you all for your input.

[Veilan]

So all's good then, no?

Don't overdo combat, use it to spice up the story where appropriate or where the PCs choose it, and should someone get in over their head - see it as one of those events making the story so much more dynamic and interesting.

But I'm sure if your PCs are smart, they'll live happily ever after.

[Zelknolf]

I'm sure if your PCs are smart, they'll live happily ever after.

+1



And in response to the "feeling like a child playing with the grownups" -- unique skills/abilities can solve that instantly. I could roll up a level 1 and make it incredibly useful. How many ALFAns have decipher script? I know of a sorc with tongues (close! Not as reliable, on account of spells getting used up, but close!) and a wizard who tends to prepare comprehend languages (only good for one object per casting). How many ALFAns have climb, jump, and swim? Who's gonna get to the top of this here cliff to tie off the rope for everyone else to climb, or swim across those rapids with similar rope-usin' plans? A level 1 monk could. How many ALFAns have more than a couple ranks of sense motive? Sure is nice to know when someone's B.S.ing the party...

Similarly, everyone loves bard song (I know that NWN's has a much shorter duration than PnP's, but NWN2 ubered up the inspire compitence/inspire greatness thread o' bard song.), everyone loves a tracker (and not every party has a ranger in it), any yahoo is good enough with a bow to make the crap that's trying to flank yer highbies bleed.

[Vendrin]

I surprisingly enough, agree with Nalo. But then again, I've always been a fan of not letting stupid deaths interfere with the story. Characters can and should die, but when it adds to the story, not detracts from it.

God I feel dirty now.

[Swift]

I am saying that the PCs lose their cleric of 15th level...what is a 1st level cleric supposed to do to help?

Not much. He'll have to go find some other equally low-level PCs to adventure with, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as a new player would.

Except in ALFA that falls over virtually every single time due to timezones and our small player base, particularly if your not able to play with americans. If my character dies and i can't work a new one into the Aussie group, i am, for all intents and purposes, completely fucked for playing in ALFA until Thangorn TPKs the rest of the group so they are all back at level 1, simply due to the fact that when i can play usually only sees the aussies around.

[oldgrayrogue]

In a pure campaign setting there is no good reason not to allow a player to start with a PC of any level the DM deems appropriate. In a PW ... not so much. Perhaps ALFA should permit DMs to use its resources to run "closed" campaigns where pretty much anything goes if they like. Just make those PC's limited to only "campaign play." I am always in favor of as many options for creativity as possible.

Don't stress over it Nalo, sometimes the story ends with your PC dead ... or the entire party dead before the quest has been fulfilled. That's part of the beauty of hardcore RP to me. If DMs are "protecting" their players they are suspending the simulation of a persistent "reality" we are trying to create IMO.

Bottom line, give your players an interesting, creative and immersive experience, and they will come back for more, either as a low level with the new challenge of joining the ongoing campaign or in an entirely new story.

[Nalo Jade]

I surprisingly enough, agree with Nalo. But then again, I've always been a fan of not letting stupid deaths interfere with the story. Characters can and should die, but when it adds to the story, not detracts from it.

God I feel dirty now.

Gross.


I'm cool if everyone else is. Sorry I lost my cool there a bit.

FI, I missed the post you took a half hour to make, I read it after I read the post where you referred to it...so um yeah, oops.

Nalo fails at the internets, anyone surprised?

Have fun, I am going back to my little campaign world.

I will just "make" it work. Send me a PM if something productive comes of this.