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ç i p h é r
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Over generalizing and over trivializing, Veilan. The GOP is not monolithic. It would be equally ridiculous to characterize the Democratic party as a bunch of ass grabbing, God hating communist homosexuals. Let's not get carried away.

WW, out of curiosity, did you read the WSJ op-ed? There are two problems with Ayers IMO:

1) that he is an admitted domestic terrorist that promoted militant radicalism

Since you sourced the wiki, here's the relevant snippet:
Radical History
Ayers became involved in the New Left and the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS).[7] He rose to national prominence as an SDS leader in 1968 and 1969. As head of an SDS regional group, the "Jesse James Gang", Ayers made decisive contributions to the Weatherman orientation toward militancy.[4]

The group Ayers headed in Detroit, Michigan became one of the earliest gatherings of what became the Weatherman. Between the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago and the June 1969 SDS convention, Ayers became a prominent leader of the group, which arose as a result of a schism in SDS.[4]

"During that time his infatuation with street fighting grew and he developed a language of confrontational militancy that became more and more extreme over the year [1969]", former Weatherman member Cathy Wilkerson wrote in 2001 (who characterizes the Weathermen's activity as "craziness"). Ayers had previously become a roommate of Terry Robbins, a fellow militant who was two years younger and "came to idolize him", Wilkerson wrote. Robbins would later be killed while making a bomb.[8]

In June 1969, the Weatherman took control of the SDS at its national convention, where Ayers was elected "Education Secretary".[4]

Later in 1969, Ayers participated in planting a bomb at a statue dedicated to police casualties in the 1886 Haymarket Riot.[9] The blast broke almost 100 windows and blew pieces of the statue onto the nearby Kennedy Expressway.[10] (The statue was rebuilt and unveiled on May 4, 1970, and blown up again by other Weathermen on October 6, 1970.[11][10] Built yet again, the city posted a 24-hour police guard to prevent another blast.[10]) Ayers participated in the Days of Rage riot in Chicago in October 1969, and in December was at the "War Council" meeting in Flint, Michigan.

Larry Grathwohl, an FBI informant in the Weatherman group from the fall of 1969 to the spring of 1970, thought that Ayers, along with Bernardine Dohrn, were probably the two most authoritative people within the organization.[12]

Years underground
In 1970 he "went underground" with several associates after the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, in which Weatherman member Ted Gold, Ayers' close friend Terry Robbins, and Ayers' girlfriend, Oughton, were killed when a nail bomb (an anti-personnel device) they were assembling exploded. Kathy Boudin and Cathy Wilkerson survived the blast. Ayers was not facing criminal charges at the time, but the federal government later filed charges against him.[1]

Ayers participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, the United States Capitol building in 1971, and The Pentagon in 1972, as he noted in his 2001 book, Fugitive Days. Because of a water leak caused by the Pentagon bombing, aerial bombardments during the Vietnam War had to be halted for several days. Ayers writes:

Although the bomb that rocked the Pentagon was itsy-bitsy - weighing close to two pounds - it caused 'tens of thousands of dollars' of damage. The operation cost under $500, and no one was killed or even hurt. In that same time, the Pentagon spent tens of millions of dollars and dropped tens of thousands of pounds of explosives on Viet Nam, killing or wounding thousands of human beings, causing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage.[13]

He also said, however, that the book was partly fiction.[14]

While underground, he and fellow member Bernardine Dohrn married, and the two remained fugitives together, changing identities, jobs and locations. By 1976 or 1977, with federal charges against both fugitives dropped due to prosecutorial misconduct (see COINTELPRO), Ayers was ready to turn himself in to authorities, but Dohrn remained reluctant until after she gave birth to two sons, one born in 1977, the other in 1980. "He was sweet and patient, as he always is, to let me come to my senses on my own", she later said.[1] The couple turned themselves in in 1980.

Ayers and Dohrn later became legal guardians to the son of former Weathermen David Gilbert and Kathy Boudin after the boy's parents were convicted and sent to prison for their part in the Brinks Robbery of 1981.[14]
2) that he is an admitted left wing radical

Relevant snippets:
In works like "City Kids, City Teachers" and "Teaching the Personal and the Political," Mr. Ayers wrote that teachers should be community organizers dedicated to provoking resistance to American racism and oppression. His preferred alternative? "I'm a radical, Leftist, small 'c' communist," Mr. Ayers said in an interview in Ron Chepesiuk's, "Sixties Radicals," at about the same time Mr. Ayers was forming CAC.

CAC translated Mr. Ayers's radicalism into practice. Instead of funding schools directly, it required schools to affiliate with "external partners," which actually got the money. Proposals from groups focused on math/science achievement were turned down. Instead CAC disbursed money through various far-left community organizers, such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (or Acorn).
What the recently released documents from the CAC archives reveal is that the relationship between Obama and Ayers was far more than "just a guy I know in my neighborhood."

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What if McCain worked on a foundation that promoted religious radicalization of inner city families and with someone who once orchestrated abortion clinic bombings. Would this be relevant? I certainly think so. It speaks to core beliefs which you could extrapolate to domestic policy and governance.

The Ayers relationship may not bother you, but it's hardly fallacious.
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Post by Mulu »

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Post by Mulu »

McCain is never the answer.

And this is just brilliant.
CNN's Campbell Brown wrote:"Tonight I call on the McCain campaign to stop treating Sarah Palin like she is a delicate flower that will wilt at any moment," said Brown. "This woman is from Alaska for crying out loud. She is strong. She is tough. She is confident. And you claim she is ready to be one heart beat away form the presidency. If that is the case, then end this chauvinistic treatment of her now. Allow her to show her stuff. Allow her to face down those pesky reporters... Let her have a real news conference with real questions. By treating Sarah Palin different from the other candidates in this race, you are not showing her the respect she deserves. Free Sarah Palin. Free her from the chauvinistic chain you are binding her with. Sexism in this campaign must come to an end. Sarah Palin has just as much a right to be a real candidate in this race as the men do. So let her act like one."
You go girl!
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Post by Veilan »

ç i p h é r wrote:Over generalizing and over trivializing, Veilan. The GOP is not monolithic.
Of course it's not, the policies that come out of that corner, however, more often fit my, admittedly polemic, characterisation than they don't. Scaremongering about gay marriages, banning gay porn, legislating pledge of allegiance, etc.. It's getting the clan together by pointing at the one guy most don't like.
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Post by Mulu »

Palin's unblinking certitude gave way at other times in the interview to a striking imprecision, as when she struggled to respond to Couric's suggestion that the $700-billion bailout might be better funneled through middle-class families instead of Wall Street firms.

"That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, we're ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the healthcare reform that is needed to help shore up our economy. Um, helping, oh -- it's got to be all about job creation too. Shoring up our economy, and putting it back on the right track. So healthcare reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions, and tax relief for Americans, and trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, um, scary thing, but 1 in 5 jobs being created in the trade sector today. We've got to look at that as more opportunity. All of those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that."
Ummmm, wtf? See Cipher, I *told* you she speaks in tongues!

Gosh, that reminded me of her early years as a beauty pageant contestant.
;)
It didn't go much better for Palin when she tried to clarify the mystery of what her state's proximity to Russia has taught her about that nation. Anyone south of the Arctic Circle would have seen this question coming and had a ready answer. But seemingly not the governor.

"We have trade missions back and forth," Palin told Couric. "We, we do, it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America, where, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to, to our state."

Certainly, Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, has demonstrated his willingness to invade its small neighbors. But have I missed news of recent provocations by Russian bombers over Kiwalik or Aleknagik? And if Palin has been intensely interested in her neighbor across the Bering Strait, that also has escaped the reporters who follow her most closely.

In fact, a veteran reporter from her home state, Hal Bernton, reported in the Seattle Times this month how Russian politicians had sought more contact with Palin, but in vain. The governor cut funding and her office's participation, it seems, in the Northern Forum, which promotes relations between regional governments in the Northern Hemisphere.

A Palin spokeswoman e-mailed that she would provide more detail about Palin's trade activities with the Russkies. No word by deadline.
What a joke of a candidate. But at least she got rid of those nasty witches that were haunting her.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Of course it's not, the policies that come out of that corner, however, more often fit my, admittedly polemic, characterisation than they don't. Scaremongering about gay marriages, banning gay porn, legislating pledge of allegiance, etc.. It's getting the clan together by pointing at the one guy most don't like.
If you believe that, then you're just a victim of left wing demagoguery. Many Americans want to preserve tradition and the Judeo-Christian values that this country was founded on. America is not and never was a secular nation. We have a secular government to ensure that all citizens can enjoy religious freedom (or conversely, not be persecuted for their beliefs in the way Protestants were by Catholics). The GOP - very generally speaking - has tried to represent these desires. Certainly the extremes on both sides like to mischaracterize the [constant] struggle between liberalism and conservatism for their own ends.

There's also nothing inherently wrong with the pledge of allegiance; Every naturalized citizen is required to make that pledge before a judge. The issue is over the inclusion of one nation "under God".

@Mulu: ROFL. She's just too smart for you to comprehend is all. ;)
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Post by Mulu »

ç i p h é r wrote:Many Americans want to preserve tradition and the Judeo-Christian values that this country was founded on.
Like Slavery for example. :P

The country was actually founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, which was decidedly anti-Christian, meaning anti-organized religion.

“The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”
-George Washington

John Adams signed into law during his first term the Treaty of Tripoli, which says in no uncertain terms, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...“

This treaty was read aloud before the full house and senate, passed unanimously, and was published in full in every major newspaper in the country at that time.

John Adams:
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

“Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind”

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”

“I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits.... Shall we not have regular swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the gipsies can assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is this society of Loyola's. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of religious toleration to offer them an asylum.”


James Madison (Father of the Constitution)
"[The] civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner or on any pretext infringed.” (1st A. draft)

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

“What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people.”

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise”

Thomas Paine

"My own mind is my own church.  All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.“

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”

Benjamin Franklin

“Scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself ”
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Thomas Jefferson:

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”

"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Last edited by Mulu on Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lusipher »

Your an idiot, Mulu. :roll:
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Post by Mulu »

Yep, me and all the Founding Fathers.
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Post by Fionn »

Lusipher wrote:Your an idiot, Mulu. :roll:
That's 'well read idiot' to you Lusipher ;)
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Post by Grand Fromage »

Lusipher wrote:Your an idiot, Mulu. :roll:
Yes how dare he quote the actual words of the framers to support an argument about their beliefs, what kind of fucktard do you have to be to read things and use facts
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Post by Mulu »

Turns out I'm not the only one who spotted the obvious. :)

Palin as NC teen contestant
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Post by mxlm »

Doh. Mulu covered it already. Dammit.
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Post by Lusipher »

See the thing is he had none of that put up in his text when I wrote what I did. Thats a constant with Mulu. Always going back and editing his posts. He had none of that posted before, but decided to go back after the fact.
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Post by White Warlock »

Lusipher wrote:See the thing is he had none of that put up in his text when I wrote what I did. Thats a constant with Mulu. Always going back and editing his posts. He had none of that posted before, but decided to go back after the fact.
Right, he made all that research and posted all that information in a cohesive fashion, within in a matter of less than two minutes after your childish comment, JUST to spite you.

Geez Danubus, you're starting to sound like hateface/PD.
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