Priest System

[indio]

Any way to take such things into account?

Not when the conversation is done, the original poster statisfied, time has so far been well spent. Go do something else people. This is yesterday's problem. The perspective that made this a fun and useful thread is lost.

[Veilan]

Hello!

Veilan has previously offered the exact same reasoning as Rusty that the gods want their faithful to tithe.

I'm afraid this is a slight, and I'm sure unintended, misrepresentation of my stance. While I addressed several points, which Rusty seems to share, I'd like to stress that there is a fundamental difference between what a god wants and what the clergy may need.

In short, I see several reasons against this kind of discount, which I will put in a nutshell:

1.: Principally violating the arbitrated fairness system used in roleplaying games

You cannot get advantages without paying for them. While I like that you can bluff your way to cheaper services, this should be more a general trading reward for putting your skill points in social skills. The deity field is not a ressource point you invest to gain advantages.

2.: Failing to address the polytheistic society of Faerûn

Most individuals would pay respect and worship to not only one god, but several, as the reality of their existance can't be denied. The system would have to be quite complex to satisfy me.

3.: Failing to represent the actual relationship between clergy and faithful

The faithful are the ones giving to their church, paying the wages, clothing and food of the priests, the masons and artisans to build and maintain holy sites, buy religous paraphernalia, and so on. In most cases, it makes little sense for a priest to give handouts to their ostensibly rich adventuring faithful, instead of asking them to tithe and donate appropriately to be sure of their deity's blessing. The god may just want their souls when they die, but the clergy certainly want to spread their deity's word and make a living, varying in priority from deity to deity.

So, let me get back to what I proposed elsewhere...



Proposed solution:

Tie discounts, or special services, or extended inventories not to the faith someone entered, but to the amount of donations they have given their church. You want special treatment in your god's community? Put your money where your mouth is. You can tithe in several temples without problem, and even if you just "fake" it to gain standing in a community / access to services, gold is a real, hard currency that will sway the clergy, which is the one deciding to offer you their services (as an added benefit, this means even characters with more obscure deities can get access to better church services).

This solutions kills all flies with one swat. It's vastly preferable to free handouts, as you have to pay for your benefits, and offers characters a possibility to honour all faiths that may be relevant to them, and, most importantly, offers a more realistic portrayal of the relationship between clergy and faithful.

Thanks for reading,

[Kest]

This is an interesting thread - I was unknowingly working on a similar system for BG, but was unsatisfied with it due to the reasons above and left it only as a placeholder until I could come up with something better. Thanks for the suggestions.

[dergon darkhelm]

I also find this thread interesting....good work

Tie discounts, or special services, or extended inventories not to the faith someone entered, but to the amount of donations they have given their church. You want special treatment in your god's community? Put your money where your mouth is. You can tithe in several temples without problem, and even if you just "fake" it to gain standing in a community / access to services, gold is a real, hard currency that will sway the clergy, which is the one deciding to offer you their services

Dead on!

+1

[Mick]

I have no problem with that notion.

Now just to find some source of income.

[Swift]

Little more i can really add. I think Veilans proposed solution is rather good and not so far from what alot of organized religion works on in the real world.

Send me money, send me green
Heaven you will meet
Make a contribution
and you'll get a better seat

The clergy of most religions are dedicated to seeing their faith spread throughout the lands, and all that requires money, and that only really comes from faithful followers contributing to see it happen. Most followers are likely not provided favors purely because they are faithful. Those who contribute though?

Build the clergy a temple and you'll have much greater access to the leadership than the poor farmers that come in for weekly prayer.

[Creslyn]

I think I'll probably have to +1 Veilan's post, especially with the pantheistic nature of Faerun's gods.

That said, what would be ideal is a full-on reputation system for dealing with priests and worshippers (and other matters) that takes into account donations/tithes, deeds, word of mouth, and other things like letters of introduction (opening the way to other skills such as bluff, forgery, etc).

That's no small ask, and would require a lot of work. Of all people, I know how irritating it can be to have something asked for, completed, and then have folks not involved nitpick something to death, so I don't want to do that to Wynna. I would however like to see the option left open to go to a more advanced system in the future when/if one is undertaken.

[fluffmonster]

make the discount contingent on possession of a token which can be gained either by tithing a certain amount, or via DM for RP and actions which gain the favor of the priest. That way the discount can be treated more like a loot reward. The token should probably be specific to a particular priest/temple, extending only to other priests which would have good RP reason to be subject to the same influence factors as the "issuing" priest. The token can always be integrated into a full reputation system should such a thing be developed.

That's my suggestion anyway.

[ayergo]

I've always been of the opinion that there is a vast amount of variety for how religious groups operate, even the same religion.

In some places they're strictly quid-pro-quo, where you must be a donor to even catch their attention.

In other places they'll give things out to whomever needs it or wants it regardless of faith. Heck, i'm an atheist and a catholic priest bought me dinner last night and gave me 4 pheasants. He also had several college girls hitting on him, but thats a different story...

Some places still they'll only talk to those who wish to convert and spend time there.

I guess what i'm saying is i don't think there is any one standard way that all churches and groups will behave. I think there is a lot of variety in that, and as such isn't something i would want to standardize throughout the servers.

It would be nice to have an "all encompassing" script to allow the builder to select a few options for behavior, and this may be a good start for that. As is though if the HDM of the server thinks this the most appropriate response for a particular temple, he's welcome to use this implementation.

[Curmudgeon]

Proposed solution:

Tie discounts, or special services, or extended inventories not to the faith someone entered, but to the amount of donations they have given their church. You want special treatment in your god's community? Put your money where your mouth is. You can tithe in several temples without problem, and even if you just "fake" it to gain standing in a community / access to services, gold is a real, hard currency that will sway the clergy, which is the one deciding to offer you their services (as an added benefit, this means even characters with more obscure deities can get access to better church services).

This solutions kills all flies with one swat. It's vastly preferable to free handouts, as you have to pay for your benefits, and offers characters a possibility to honour all faiths that may be relevant to them, and, most importantly, offers a more realistic portrayal of the relationship between clergy and faithful.

Thanks for reading,

How about some numbers to go with that?

[Fyrekrest]

I think Wynna was definitely on to something when she started this thread and the scripts for priests. However, a good idea becomes a great idea when it's debated and additional ideas/thoughts are thrown into the mix.

Here's my thoughts:

1. Priests should behave differently to different people - Agreed!
However, unless Wynna is able (and willing!) to spend an eternity coding every single possible outcome for every single possible outcome, the full complexity of it can never be achieved. Working within a certain framework is the best that she, or anyone, can achieve. Her initial script is a very good idea.

2. Religion involves Role-Playing!
Obviously there will be loopholes and such in any loose code. ALFA is a series of servers that stresses the importance and degree of role-playing amongst its players. Therefore, even if a follower of Tyr could go to a priest of Cyric for healing.. should they? Absolutely not. Granted, there may be some players who will intentionally overlook such limits, or may offer up some feeble excuse as to why it fits their specific character, but seriously... if we're as great at role-playing as we'd like to present ourselves, there are some obvious lines that shouldn't be crossed. Please bear in mind that of course there will always be some extreme exceptions to every rule, but for the most part, our characters and the way we role-play them typically fall into at least a vague set of limitations.

3. Scripting shouldn't have to account for poor role-playing.
If a player thinks that no one is looking, and seeks out healing at a typically unacceptable religion, hopefully they get caught. A paladin of Torm seeking healing at a temple of Bane? Let a DM come drop a giant gauntlet on them to the point where no amount of healing is going to help! Role-play the consequences!

Here's a relatively basic set of ideas that I came up with as I read through the thread, reading and weighing everyone's thoughts on the subject. Please note: I am not omnisentient and it may not be possible for whatever reasons. It's just my two cents

Each priest should have a unique set of scripts/conversations tied to him/her. Each conversation/script could be as detailed or loose depending on the religion. Examples:

A Priest at a shrine of Ilmater: following the basics of Ilmater's dogma, it is the priest's duty to heal and help. They often cater to the poor, the infirm, etc. Obviously, any healing would be done at a very reasonable rate. Outcome? Cheap cure light wounds. Very cheap! In fact, a priest of Ilmater who refused healing on repeated occaisions would probably face a lecture from his god himself. But just because he casts cheap cure light wounds, doesn't mean he would have to do it at every request. Example: "I'm sorry, but the Crying God has already relieved you of some pain today. Instead, go forth with the knowledge that the continued pain you feel will only make you stronger tomorrow!" (ie, a cheap CLW once/day or even less.) Just because a priest is at a temple does not mean he has infinite spells he can cast. He has a limit too!

A Priest of Corellon: following the head of the elven pantheon, the priest should be willing to comfort and help any elf in need. But there are obvious limitations. Cheap curing may come at the cost of a maximum number per day or week, or even month. Humans asking help from the same priest may find the fees so outrageous that they cannot afford it, even for a cure light wounds. And half-orcs? I would hope they are SERIOUSLY wealthy, if they even have the option of recieving help.

A priest of Moradin: similar to an elven priest, but directed more towards dwarves. And a half-orc visiting a dwarven priest? You'd need some seriously specific role-playing to bring that one about.

A priest of Cyric: Yeah, he might heal a paladin of Tyr. But at what costs to the paladin? The priest may not ask him for any fee whatsoever... He'd probably take the paladin's soul and loss of favor as payment enough!

So that's how I see it. Each priest would behave differently. Perhaps a single script for all priests is not the answer, but I do strongly believe that priests should behave and act in different ways to different players. Yeah, a player may 'bend the rules' to suit them. Those same players will bend whatever rules they can to suit them when they think they won't get caught. But, as far as I know, the logs can reveal a lot of information. So Lucy the Loviatan gets cheap healing from the Ilmatari shrine. Let her. And let her enjoy the consequences as the DMs find out and show her REAL pain! In the worst case scenarios of blatant role-playing transgressions, punish them. Deduct exp. Strip them of all possessions. Enforce the ALFA charter that they agreed to abide by!

So yeah.. that's my thoughts on the topic. I don't believe there will ever be any one single script that can account for every religion and every type of behaviour. I agree that a paladin should tithe. But does it have to be coded in? Not really. They should be responsible for it in their role-play, or they shouldn't be playing such a strictly mandated class. And who cares if Bob the Super Wealthy has tithed fifty thousand gold to the church of Tyr, and the priest is still charging him the same fee for a cure light wounds. If he can afford to tithe fifty thousand gold, he can afford to pay the regular fee. Anyway, that's just what I think.

P.S. Only clerics, druids, paladins, etc, should get special benefits from any church, and only from the church they belong to specifically. Sure Sue the Sunite Mage might be the most devout follower of Sune ever to walk Faerun. But a script cannot adapt to every single variable. Let her faith be rewarded during role-play.

And if there are not enough DM hours being clocked to suit your tastes? Offer to help out. Chip in an hour or two a week, either with a minor dm adventure or a small build. Give something, before asking for something back.

[Veilan]

Proposed solution:

Tie discounts, or special services, or extended inventories not to the faith someone entered, but to the amount of donations they have given their church. You want special treatment in your god's community? Put your money where your mouth is. You can tithe in several temples without problem, and even if you just "fake" it to gain standing in a community / access to services, gold is a real, hard currency that will sway the clergy, which is the one deciding to offer you their services (as an added benefit, this means even characters with more obscure deities can get access to better church services).

This solutions kills all flies with one swat. It's vastly preferable to free handouts, as you have to pay for your benefits, and offers characters a possibility to honour all faiths that may be relevant to them, and, most importantly, offers a more realistic portrayal of the relationship between clergy and faithful.

Thanks for reading,

How about some numbers to go with that?

Heh, that is a good question Curm. I guess it would depend on what kind of differentiations we want to offer.
I reckon we could have thresholds like:
Offer mundane store and services - discount 5% - discount 10% - extended inventory: mastercraft goods - extended inventory: magical goods - extended inventory: rare magical / exotical goods (all goods relevant to the faith of course)

A "reputation token" item to go along with each threshold would be neat, and could influence the dialogue of faction NPCs accordingly. Of course, we are now entering the territory of a reputation / faction system, but this may be a good place to start doing so.

[Kest]

i hope those examples are intended as guidelines and not more homogeneous standards...