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Zelknolf
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Post by Zelknolf »

JaydeMoon wrote:But it certainly isn't my place to tell any person what they can or cannot do
That makes you pro choice. The labels for the positions are about teh laws. Plenty of folk taking the pro choice position who think that life begins at conception who would exhaust every other feasible option before aborting a pregnancy, and would just rather not pass laws against the stuff.

:P
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Post by Mayhem »

Vendrin wrote:
I think everyone can understand the position - being a parent doesn't add any new flashes of insight,
I'm not a parent(thank god), but just so I can get where you are coming from in this statement, are you speaking as a parent?
Yes.

It hasn't changed my pro-choice stance one iota.

Incidentally, I recommend "A Case of Need" by Michael Crichton to anyone who wants some extra info on the topic. Wether you agree with him or not, it's bound to inform you.
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Post by HATEFACE »

Rusty wrote:
It simply means that you believe life begins at conception.
Problem is, this isn't really a rationally defensible position. Stating the life begins at conception requires a definition of "life" that is extraordinarily peculiar, and that creates a whole host of inevitably unresolvable difficulties. Of course, there's not necessarily a link between being anti-choice and overly religious, but as the 'life and conception' position is rationally insecure, it relies upon the faith of religion to justify it.
I guess you don't really know what human pregnancy consists of or. . . any other MAMMAL for that matter. :P Wikipedia gives you a crash course in pregnancy. Perhaps it would be nice if you got to know what a uterus can do. :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_pregnancy
Definition of life? "Life is a state that distinguishes organisms from non-living objects, such as non-life, and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism and reproduction. Some living things can communicate and many can adapt to their environment through changes originating internally. A physical characteristic of life is that it feeds on negative entropy." -wikipedia.

So what is life? Life is organisms. Humans are organisms that are manifested by growth? Check. They grow, they adapt, they strive. . . All that good shit. Check. Die? Check. All I ask of other humans is that they give newborn humans the chance to do all that, in the middle stuff, that we take for granted so often.

Are you sure some of YOU people haven't been taught christian theology? Heh. Egads! I needed to define it.
I've never heard of a non-religious pro-lifer. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but the movement is most certainly religious in nature.
Another lie perpetuated by the far left. Maybe you should get out of your bubble down there in CALIFURNURER. Might learn something new. Sure there non-religious pro-lifers. :shock: Again, zicada, I feel sorry for you some times. Let's have another chat in private. . . Not only can we cybor without the prying eyes of Mulu but we can toast our new baby.
2. I have no idea how being a mother or father has anything to do with this. This is about giving other people the freedom to make choices about their own bodies. Why should you be allowed to impose your view that a tiny bloody lump of bio-matter is a child onto people who definitely are not ready to care for a kid once it actually evolves into one ?

1. Of course not, you're neither of the two. ;p

2. This is about freedom! Not religion. (though to some. . ) Is it fair to impose death upon a child that isn't born yet? Is it fair to burden a woman who may not be ready to raise a child? Complicated issue but. .
The woman already is alive, she has struggled and lived, doing whatever it is she does. If she honestly doesn't want a child, there is always adoption and other parents could benefit from that, even the child. If she changes her mind and wants to keep her baby, that's fine, at least she has that choice. I believe that it is important to protect the rights of those who have none in the eyes of an outspoken people who believe women have a right to kill their unborn child if it becomes a burden, physically, mentally, economically, whatever. Most states, like texas disallows for abortion after period of time at which the fetus develops. Limiting the timeframe that some women have to make that choice. To me, there is a clear difference between a egg and a fertalized egg, to others, I guess not so much. 3. You do not evolve in the womb. Evolution is entirely different, but I'm guessing that's norse-speak and you didn't really intend to mean what you say. We do 'develop' if that is what you mean. We grow rather quicky from a 'bloody lump of bio-matter' into a 'child.' If there is someone who isn't ready to care for the child, than there are most certainly others who are. Humans already have a natural process for birth control, I see no reason why an artificial one needs to be imposed.
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Post by Nalo Jade »

No abortion clinics = no way to regulate abortion.

Don't like abortion, stand outside a clinic with a sign saying.

"I will adopt your baby, please don't do this."

Remove abortion and quack psuedo doctors will be performing the operations in garages for $500, cash...and then we will have to pay for the DEA to look for Drugs and Abortionists ...

Speaking of which you might as well legalize weed and at least collect some tax money from it.

I don't care what other people do unless hurts someone.

Does an embryo have a soul? DO sperm? How do you know when the soul starts ... the Bible didn't talk about zygotes the last I checked...

But if it starts at the sperm/egg level we have all committed genocide...maybe it starts at the thought?

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Post by HATEFACE »

Nalo Jade wrote:But if it starts at the sperm/egg level we have all committed genocide...maybe it starts at the thought?
Interesting. More thoughts later but I fear what we may become if we think so little of our orgins.
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Post by HATEFACE »

I was thinking on terms of respect for proliferation of life. sperm egg fertilzation. Though the monty python bit is funny and pokes the religious quo of the day and makes fun of catholics and their generally large families. I also like the song ;o Alonga witha this'un. I'm not saying people should fuck like a rabbits with no protection or regard for the lives they could be producing. Perhaps people should be moderate with what they do with their penis and no! not some arcaic 1800s 1930s view of sex! We live in a culture of sex(media, from mtv - politics - comercials - music) so therefor there should be consideration. Sperm nor eggs seperately are viewed with imperative but is fertilzation?
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Post by HATEFACE »

Don't like abortion, stand outside a clinic with a sign saying.

"I will adopt your baby, please don't do this."
Just like Juno, because a child of that age is smart and capable of making a sound decision and not a byproduct of hollywood fantasy. . . You would believe a child that smart would have enough sense not to have sex in the first place but hollywood is hollywood.
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Zelknolf
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Post by Zelknolf »

Nalo Jade wrote:"If God see's the future, do you really have free will?"
Holy predestination, batman! Nalo's gone Puritan!

(the answer is yes, btw. When people say "Well, where I'm going when I die was decided before I was born," "I'm gonna have a hell of a time while I'm alive!" follows shortly after... 'swhy we have no Puritans these days, and Reform Churches are in many tiny lulzable splinters.)
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Post by Vaelahr »

Mulu wrote:I've never heard of a non-religious pro-lifer. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but the movement is most certainly religious in nature.
I'm a deist/theist/something-or-other and I'm Pro-Life simply on the basis of science and common sense.

I think many Pro-Choice folks are Pro-Choice without careful study of the issue and simply want to distance themselves from the "Religious Right" for fear of being considered extreme or unreasonable.
Pro-life is the wrong term anyway since most of them support the death penalty and war. Anti-abortion is far more accurate.
"Pro-Life" is a term used in the context of pregnancy or embryonic development or whatever. I'm also pro-justice, so hang 'em high, bombs away, and all that shit.

I believe human life begins at conception. To assert otherwise shows a grave ignorance of science. A look at human biology really makes it quite clear. The question is - when do we consider human life to be of value?
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Post by danielmn »

Mmm. I am Pro Choice simply on the basis that I have no right whatsoever telling someone else what they can or can't do. It becomes a question of legality, and the law thus far says it's not murder and not against the law. I suppose the arguement could be made that there is a higher law...but higher judgement will be applied postmortum, so I believe those arguements should be left out of the equation. I am not ignorant of science in the least...nor am I so ignorant that I believe I have the right to tell others how they should live their lives. Yes, there are laws to follow, and until such time as it becomes against the law to abort, I will support the option. I hope Orwell's hypothesis doesn't become a reality one day...
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Post by Vaelahr »

danielmn wrote:Mmm. I am Pro Choice simply on the basis that I have no right whatsoever telling someone else what they can or can't do. It becomes a question of legality, and the law thus far says it's not murder and not against the law. I suppose the arguement could be made that there is a higher law...but higher judgement will be applied postmortum, so I believe those arguements should be left out of the equation. I am not ignorant of science in the least...nor am I so ignorant that I believe I have the right to tell others how they should live their lives. Yes, there are laws to follow, and until such time as it becomes against the law to abort, I will support the option. I hope Orwell's hypothesis doesn't become a reality one day...
Americans are able to voice their opinions on possible legislation. Do you feel it should be against the law to abort unborn children? Do you think the act of abortion is morally wrong?

Forget the knee-jerk "But we shouldn't force our morality on others" response. We should and do. It's how laws are made.
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Post by danielmn »

Sorry, I can't forget the knee-jerk I WON'T force my own beleifs on others...it is who and what I am. My beleifs have nothing to do with you, and I would not think of cramming what I believe down your throat. It's why I give Creationism taught in school and ten commandments at the courthouse the middle finger. Not to say that I hate those beliefs, or disagree with them. I think we can all agree that the ten commandments in and of themselves are a good thing to follow and creationism is plausible. But don't cram them in my face plskthx.

Do i feel it should be against the law to have the choice? No.
Do I feel it is morally wrong? I would say no to this as well, but everyones morailty differs. That isn't exactly a bad thing, you know? I suppose if you want a cookie cutter society, you could have one...it's been supported before, albeit unsuccessfully. Granted, by my not voicing an opinion to legislature, it does open up the possibilities of laws being passed that I would disagree with but would have to abide by. But that's the modern day state for you, always wanting to constrict the freedoms of its people...always trying to make everyone like everyone else because difference is bad. Personally, I enjoy my FREEDOMS. The question certainly is not, When is life life, but when do we begin to value it is such.

Unfortuneatly, I have little feeling or thought on debates such as these. In college yes, years later, I find they don't apply to me much, so I tend to focus on more relevant things to my own life. About the only time I do speak up is for the support of others choices in whatever they do, this being one of those times. Apathetic? Not realy...Not as much as centered.
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Post by Mulu »

Vaelahr wrote:I believe human life begins at conception. To assert otherwise shows a grave ignorance of science. A look at human biology really makes it quite clear. The question is - when do we consider human life to be of value?
Well, roughly 80% of all pregnancies self terminate prior to implantation, so if a human life starts at conception, the vast majority of human beings get flushed down the toilet. Something to consider.

Viability is the more practical bright line, though even there you are regulating the uterus at bit, as you would force a woman to induce or carry to term once the fetus was viable. That's an awful lot of government coercion, being pushed by folk who scream out against having to vaccinate their children or send them to school....
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Post by Vaelahr »

danielmn wrote:Sorry, I can't forget the knee-jerk I WON'T force my own beleifs on others...it is who and what I am. My beleifs have nothing to do with you, and I would not think of cramming what I believe down your throat. It's why I give Creationism taught in school and ten commandments at the courthouse the middle finger. Not to say that I hate those beliefs, or disagree with them. I think we can all agree that the ten commandments in and of themselves are a good thing to follow and creationism is plausible. But don't cram them in my face plskthx.

Do i feel it should be against the law to have the choice? No.
Do I feel it is morally wrong? I would say no to this as well, but everyones morailty differs. That isn't exactly a bad thing, you know? I suppose if you want a cookie cutter society, you could have one...it's been supported before, albeit unsuccessfully. Granted, by my not voicing an opinion to legislature, it does open up the possibilities of laws being passed that I would disagree with but would have to abide by. But that's the modern day state for you, always wanting to constrict the freedoms of its people...always trying to make everyone like everyone else because difference is bad. Personally, I enjoy my FREEDOMS. The question certainly is not, When is life life, but when do we begin to value it is such.
Wow, dan you've changed. So much more vocal and fiesty than I remember you around here. :)

So you're one of those that don't value human beings in the womb. Fair enough. This is a civil rights issue. It's a question of whether an entire class of living humans shall be deprived of their basic right to life on the basis of age and place of residence. Perhaps the question is: What right does a mother and her abortionist have to cram their morality down her unborn child's throat....fatally?
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