XP in multi-leveled party

[NickD]

The server is in no way balanced for 1st - 2nd level play. Of course people want to get out of those levels, you can't play the game at that level, other than to tavern chat.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the NWN2 OC solution to this - i.e., give a bunch of easy quests with disproportionally high XP available to levels 1 and 2 PCs only to fast level up to level 3 and then make it business as usual from there.

However, there are enough quests on TSM to get you to level 2 easily enough if there's another 1 or 2 people with you. Level 3 is a bit more difficult, but with a mixture of the RP XP and a decent sized party to handle some of the High Hold quests, it's hardly a case of having to stay in the tavern chatting.

[dob85y]

Why arnt we using the PnP exp method? By changing one part of the leveling system you have dis proportunatly affected one part of a system that effectivly breaks it.

High level characters need to earn more xp to level than lower levels, by splitting the amount exp rewarded in a party you are reducing the effect of the exp difference.

D&D is a Role playing game, in its entirety, even with experience points, levels and loot, if these aspects of the game are undervalued as a result of a drive to create a "Roleplaying Server" where these aspects of the game are not as important as "staying IC" then we may as well drop the NWN2 engine and use sorcery.net instead.

I enjoying playing here, because characters interact, they walk around(instead of running) without forever brandishing weapons, that to me is a roleplaying server, rather that seeing someone run past you with weapons out completly ignoring your character, or worse attacking because they can tell you are waeker than you.

Peace

[NickD]

I think the problem with saying we should be using the PnP or canon rules for calculating XP is that ALFA is a PW environment made up of all sorts of different characters of a wide range of levels, whereas PnP is designed as a party environment where everyone is of a similar level.

[Vendrin]

Regardless xp should just be an even split. No fancy formulas, just xp divided by number of party members.

[Kest]

I think the problem with saying we should be using the PnP or canon rules for calculating XP is that ALFA is a PW environment made up of all sorts of different characters of a wide range of levels, whereas PnP is designed as a party environment where everyone is of a similar level.

That is actually a problem with several of the rules here. They are going for close adherence to the paper and pencil system, which was developed for a completely different environment that a PW cannot hope to achieve: not only is the entire party of similar level, there are typically only three to five members, combat is not rushed, noncombat is a viable alternative, rewards are more generous and a DM is always present.

ALFA is not a D&D campaign and should be balanced with that fact in mind.

[Mulu]

Enough, Mulu - if you don't have any actual ideas to contribute then please don't hit the 'Submit' button.

Actual ideas, sure.

First off you have to decide what your end goal is. Presumably you want an active server with lots of roleplaying going on. I'll start with that assumption.

To have an active server, people have to have things to do that are preferably non-repetitive and IC. That's another discussion, and there has been some progress on the issue.

Then, to encourage roleplaying it has to be rewarded. Right now, twitch skills are rewarded, in fact they are required to play D&D rather than a chat game. That's also another discussion, and that is not being addressed well at all. Hardcore roleplayers tend to have low twitch skills. NWN2 requires more twitch skills than NWN1. TSM has crazy wicked spawns that are not CR scaled and maps with no place to hide and sometimes nowhere to run (my last PC met his demise in a map "corner" along with another). Do the math, the end result is rather obvious.

Also to encourage roleplaying, people have to have something to roleplay about. That's called plot. Dynamic servers with plots are interesting and give you something to RP about in game. That's also another discussion.

Additionally to encourage roleplaying, low level survivability needs to be addressed. Well, this overlaps with twitch skills to some extent. You can either make 1-3rd level fairly easy to survive, or you can make it fairly easy to level out of. Either way works. ALFA does neither.

Finally, you need to encourage partying up. That's this discussion. Canon rules are a joke because we abandon canon at the drop of a hat, and usually rightly so. Since we're going for a behavioral outcome, again we're looking at rewards. ALFA is great at coming up with punishments, but terrible at rewards. Reward systems are superior to punishment systems, ask any behaviorist. So, partying up should give an XP bonus. Not a crazy cumulative bonus that results in parties of 20 PC's, but enough to encourage the behavior. And not just for combat. Say, being in party adds a multiplier to the RP script if you're on the same map, if that's possible. Could it be abused? Sure, everything can be. Trust the players to do the right thing, punish the offenders.

In D&D campaign style play you get journal xp, session xp, combat xp, RP quality xp, creative solutions xp, completing a story arc xp, and personal story progress xp to name a few. On a PW you get combat xp, static quest xp, RP XP script, and rarely DM session xp and very rarely rp xp. So, you have fewer chances to earn xp, and the sessions are far more dangerous. Nerfing party xp just makes a bad situation worse, IMO.

Now, TT should give me a "Captain Obvious" post for this, but the sad fact is these very basic ideas have not been adequately addressed.

[indio]

I'd politely invite Ayergo and Demson to see what they think so they can work with the server team.

Whenever I read this thread (and I try to make a point of not reading it) I find a lot of the stuff insulting. Better that DMs and players don't build the walls that are getting built here.

Use admin to find a solution, but do something other than this. Many of you spend many hours playing on this server, making it what it is. Please don't forget what it took so many of us to get it to a point where that could happen.

[paazin]

Enough, Mulu - if you don't have any actual ideas to contribute then please don't hit the 'Submit' button.

Actual ideas, sure.

First off you have to decide what your end goal is. Presumably you want an active server with lots of roleplaying going on. I'll start with that assumption.

To have an active server, people have to have things to do that are preferably non-repetitive and IC. That's another discussion, and there has been some progress on the issue.

Then, to encourage roleplaying it has to be rewarded. Right now, twitch skills are rewarded, in fact they are required to play D&D rather than a chat game. That's also another discussion, and that is not being addressed well at all. Hardcore roleplayers tend to have low twitch skills. NWN2 requires more twitch skills than NWN1. TSM has crazy wicked spawns that are not CR scaled and maps with no place to hide and sometimes nowhere to run (my last PC met his demise in a map "corner" along with another). Do the math, the end result is rather obvious.

Also to encourage roleplaying, people have to have something to roleplay about. That's called plot. Dynamic servers with plots are interesting and give you something to RP about in game. That's also another discussion.

Additionally to encourage roleplaying, low level survivability needs to be addressed. Well, this overlaps with twitch skills to some extent. You can either make 1-3rd level fairly easy to survive, or you can make it fairly easy to level out of. Either way works. ALFA does neither.

Finally, you need to encourage partying up. That's this discussion. Canon rules are a joke because we abandon canon at the drop of a hat, and usually rightly so. Since we're going for a behavioral outcome, again we're looking at rewards. ALFA is great at coming up with punishments, but terrible at rewards. Reward systems are superior to punishment systems, ask any behaviorist. So, partying up should give an XP bonus. Not a crazy cumulative bonus that results in parties of 20 PC's, but enough to encourage the behavior. And not just for combat. Say, being in party adds a multiplier to the RP script if you're on the same map, if that's possible. Could it be abused? Sure, everything can be. Trust the players to do the right thing, punish the offenders.

In D&D campaign style play you get journal xp, session xp, combat xp, RP quality xp, creative solutions xp, completing a story arc xp, and personal story progress xp to name a few. On a PW you get combat xp, static quest xp, RP XP script, and rarely DM session xp and very rarely rp xp. So, you have fewer chances to earn xp, and the sessions are far more dangerous. Nerfing party xp just makes a bad situation worse, IMO.

Now, TT should give me a "Captain Obvious" post for this, but the sad fact is these very basic ideas have not been adequately addressed.

And hence why they're being addressed as we speak, Mulu. The DMs, HDMs and Admin are already in discussion a number of issues, including this (in fact there's a thread I posted in the admin forum about it)

Rest assured it there will be change, but we want to make sure it's something that doesn't end with us being in a worse position than where we are now.

[Hughes]

Rest assured it there will be change, but we want to make sure it's something that doesn't end with us being in a worse position than where we are now.

Rad.

[Mulu]

Very good to hear. Lots of us don't have access to DM or admin forums, so all we get is static in the absence of statements.

[paazin]

Very good to hear. Lots of us don't have access to DM or admin forums, so all we get is static in the absence of statements.

Everyone who is a full member should have access to the Admin forum (at least read access)

Is it not showing up?

[Mulu]

Maybe it just doesn't update under "view posts since last visit." A lot of stuff gets skipped by that function.

Ah, you're referring to this?

That's one issue.

[paazin]

Maybe it just doesn't update under "view posts since last visit." A lot of stuff gets skipped by that function.

Ah, you're referring to this?

That's one issue.

Yep, specifically for this subject - with the standards revamp that ayergo is considering there will likely be more threads posted.

[Arkan Bladesinger]

Dammit, I didn´t want to say this, but I actually feel disgusted now.

Farming used to be a punishable offense.

Meta gaming and Powergaming used to be such, too.

I like my xp as much as the next guy and I have no problems if it were changed to equal split between party or whatever, but I have a huge problem with the attitude that has formed that xp pwns interaction and roleplay.

This attitude eats me and discourages contribution.

[paazin]

The three are certainly punishable offenses, Arkan - you have no worries there. We have been rather lax on enforcement of this, only grabbing the 'extreme outliers' when the problem was clearly much more systemic.

That said, the solution needs to be twofold, a carrot and a stick: one, give something that players like some sort of reward for playing by the rules, working in the spirit of ALFA. The second, give appropriate discipline to those who don't choose to follow those rules - those who solo to get to the next level so they can "take down" another PC, for example (I've seen this on TSM and it troubles me quite a bit).

I can understand the frustration from both sides in the debate; it's something that has always been an issue and likely will be in the future, but that doesn't mean we cannot improve our system some so it can function more fluidly.