Party Chat

[Kalandorm]

Maybe it is just me, but I am curious to see. I have seen many many other server DMs request the use of characters using party chat before, in many instances it just makes sense. The more I see it used in ALFA though, the more and more I'm growing to really not like to participate in it. Here is my reasoning: What I'm noticing is that as soon as a group of characters comes under the attention of a DM, everyone switches to party chat, even though they are standing beside each other, all in one screen. This happened tonight with me, there were five characters standing in the market using party chat.

Now I know most will say, so what? But, being someone who's invested a lot of skill points to the Listen skill, it kind of bums me out. Normally, your Listen check is applied any time anyone says anything, and you have to be close enough to hear them. The distance for Whispers is significantly smaller of course. Anything said in party chat, is impossible to be over heard by anyone outside of the party. Even though they could be standing just feet away themselves. Now, take this into consideration. As a roguish character, my PC is getting to the point now where stealth and listen are becoming used more often. The use of party chat totally negates any skill any rogue type has, period, no chance what so ever. I am a firm believer that things should be level across the board. If you are saying something to someone five feet away, and someone is hiding eavesdropping, and they can *actually* overhear you, great, good for them. If you are worried about being overheard, use whisper, its much tougher to hear, but not impossible.

Of course this should go both ways. Anything that can be overheard, technically can be overheard by NPCs for DM use as well. This just makes sense, and is more consistent with table top D&D. Oddly enough, this is also a system that Obsidian managed to get pretty well dead on. As a rogue, I know. I can already be standing beside many characters in the game where they can not detect me, and I can eavesdrop without their knowing. I've tested it, I have screen shots of myself beside some people.

But, I've seen people use party chat for the express purpose so that they can NOT be overheard. I think this should be shunned by the staff. I also wish that policy of using blanket party chat be re-visited. Where you have multiple players in multiple screens that technically SHOULD be within ear shot (inside a cave entrance, and outside), that should be fine. But bear in mind, party chat rules out any chance for my character to get to use some of his greatest skills. Not cool in my book, but I'm not whining. I'll go with whatever, I'm easy to please. Its just been bugging me a while, and I'd like to hear some thoughts from others.

[Vendrin]

When a DM asks you to do it, you do it. Most don't switch to party chat until someone in the party has been asked by a dm for it.

[White Warlock]

The fundamental reason party chat is helpful for a DM, is that a DM sees party chat, no matter where he is. Thus, a DM can setup things in advance, having an idea of what you are doing, or where you are going. It allows the DM to travel around. Contrastly, regular chat restricts a DM to standing right next to the PCs. It's that simple.

So yes, it's a bit of a bummer if you're not in the party, but that's a limitation of that utility. If it could be made to 'echo' into regular chat, that would great, because it would address both the ability for the DM to hear, and the ability for non-party PCs to hear. It's something that could be looked into, and there may actually already be a hak for this somewhere in NWVault.

Anyway, what i try to do, when i'm a pc, is I put things in party chat for the DM, and echo it into regular chat for those who are in the area that are 'not' in the party. A little tedious, but it's the best solution i could find to satisfy both the DM and the non-party players.

If you find people next to you that you think are speaking in party chat, ask them (in a tell) to echo it as a courtesy to you and others. No big deal.

[danielmn]

I never use party chat if not asked specifically for by a dm, or another player whom a dm has asked. I can see how it would be frustrating to follow a partied group under stealth and not hear what is being said. Hopefully there is a fix that allows a party chat dm veiw as well as a local chat veiw fro those around.

[Kest]

If a non-party member is nearby, I switch to local or whisper chat.

Emoting whispers in local also helps with immersion. Other players should be able to tell that you are whispering, even if they can't hear what you happen to be saying. It's easiest to set these sort of emotes up as a few macros.

[Kalandorm]

When a DM asks you to do it, you do it. Most don't switch to party chat until someone in the party has been asked by a dm for it.

I don't, actually. Generally when asked to go to party chat, is about the time I exit the DM event. Definitely, I understand the need for a DM to hear what's going on without standing beside the party. I know its an advantage to them when setting up things a screen or two down the road, but still, its the "cheesy" factor that bothers me.

Eh, as I said, just wanted to hear some thoughts where people stand. I've played on other servers where Party chat was reserved only when a DM could not be right with the group, instead of using it as an "easy" tool. I kind prefer it that way to be honest.

[psycho_leo]

If a DM can't see you RP, you don't get any XP. And not getting any XP defeats the whole character development deal. Back when I DM'd NWN I had players RPing in multiple areas and only by having them use party chat I could gain insight on what they were doing right then and not only try to spice things up, but sprinkle some XP here and there.

[AcadiusLost]

The way I've generally handled it was to OOC invite others in the area to the party, so they get in on the party chat. Once they're no longer in the area, they can be removed from the party. Party chat is a tool for the utility of the DMs in most cases, and should never be used as a means to communicate undetectably. Generally, it shouldn't be used with a party in a public area where other (nonpartied) PCs are present unless there is an absolute need for it- when such need arises, the invite trick helps avoid the frustration. Granted, it means a certain amount of trust (esp if you're supposed to be following them without their knowledge).

Quitting a session because a DM requests you to use party chat while they set up something on another screen just seems rude to me; the DM is making this request for your benefit, and out of interest in what your PC may be doing or saying. Ditching the event out of "principle" in this case seems mighty ungrateful to me, and likely to be misinterpreted as DM-dodging, rather than making a point about fairness to players not in the party.

Also, for the record, I don't believe any listen checks are involved in registering emotes/spoken phrases: it's a set radius for PCs regardless of skill investment (otherwise low-listen PCs would "fail to hear" the DM narrating things some percentage of the time). Listen checks are involved in stealth/detection, but not in "hearing" RP.

[Mikayla]

Party Chat is a tool, like any other. It can be used well, or poorly. If you wish to eavesdrop on a group you suspect is in party chat, send a Tell to the DM - you can either get into party chat or they can drop out. Yes, there is some meta-information available there, but nothing is perfect - and using party chat so a DM can listen in on the party while having his or her avatar in another area setting up, breaking down, or helping someone else makes Party Chat too valuable a tool to discard just because it makes eavesdropping a little more difficult. In my opinion of course.

[Kalandorm]

Generally, it shouldn't be used with a party in a public area where other (nonpartied) PCs are present unless there is an absolute need for it- when such need arises, the invite trick helps avoid the frustration. Granted, it means a certain amount of trust (esp if you're supposed to be following them without their knowledge).

This I agree with 100%, this is how things should be done.

DM-dodging, rather than making a point about fairness to players not in the party.

I love DM attention as much as the next guy, but no offense, I've only been on a small handful of DM "events", and in each of those, it was other characters in the group who were "hooked" to the plot. Most of what I and the other people present did, was standing around watching useless dialog that did not pertain to our characters. Thats the primary reason I ever walk away, simply because it makes more sense for me NOT to be there than to ACTUALLY be there. Party Chat is just a pet peeve that usually triggers this decision. I will do my best to correct my perception of this.

Also, for the record, I don't believe any listen checks are involved in registering emotes/spoken phrases: it's a set radius for PCs regardless of skill investment (otherwise low-listen PCs would "fail to hear" the DM narrating things some percentage of the time). Listen checks are involved in stealth/detection, but not in "hearing" RP.

Eh, this I would also have to take a disagreement on. I've played a character with a zero listen before, and I had trouble hearing other characters talk. Even from a distance fairly close, dialog just sometimes does not come up. I thought it was due to listen checks, I may be wrong.

Regardless, my main point is I feel party chat is over used, and even abused by some players. This should be a resounding no-no.

[danielmn]

If not asked for specifically by a dm, it should not be used. I say feel free to Party up all you want, but leave the chat local unless a dm says otherwise. Period.

[White Warlock]

Frankly Kaladorn, you're approaching this with a very limited perspective. DMs are there to turn the world alive. As Mik already mentioned, if you want to know what is going on in a party chat, talk to the DM, or even ask the other players to echo what they're saying.

Look, you're taking the, "I am the center of the universe, and everyone should change what they do because I wish it so." It's not about principle, it really isn't. It's about you being stubborn and unwilling to concede there are ways to do what you want without 'depending' on the game's limited mechanics. That's what communication is for, that's what DMs are for.

You are limiting yourself by being stubborn. Think outside the box, instead of insisting upon a flawed belief system and a dependency on particular game mechanics. I mean, seriously, should i log off the game every time my PC is unable to understand the words being emoted by creatures that my character knows the language to? No.. of course not. If a DM is on, i'll ask him what these creatures are saying.

The game's mechanics should 'never' be your crutch in roleplaying. Oh, and i do agree with AL, quitting a DM session because a DM asks you to go on party chat is both counterproductive and rude. Principles be damned, you're just being stubborn.


Btw, did i mention you are being stubborn?

[Kalandorm]

Frankly Kaladorn, you're approaching this with a very limited perspective.

I think you missed my point, or perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough.

Either way, now I remember why I don't do forum conversation. Thank you for reminding me. I was asking for opinions, not slanderous blubbering. I will be sure not to disagree with anything the ALMIGHTY staff and Admin value again.

If the DM team is done calling me stubborn, I'll be on my way now, thanks.


*edit post script* Might I just add, that if I do leave sessions, its because they show minimal enjoyability, engaging material, or down right snooze-fest plots, not solely because of party chat. If you read what I said, you will (perhaps) see where I tried to clarify that. If I were after anything OTHER than role play, there are hundreds of other servers out there that I would be a part of, and I most certainly wouldn't be a player in ALFA.

[Mulu]

Well, bullying and belittling aside, party chat *is* very important when you're DM'ing. Just run some sessions in DM client Kal. You'll quickly see how important the party chat feature is. Even if you're in the same general location as the party, you might be out of hearing range for some members using talk channel. As a DM you really want to be able to hear everything. Party chat is mandatory in NWC campaigns as a general rule.

In game on a PW I tend to use talk channel for RP and party channel for OOC when not being DM'ed, which I think was always in ALFA NWN2.

I have seen servers where all channels broadcast to DM's the same way party chat does, but that was on an NWN1 server. Not sure if it could be done on NWN2, or if it would be done here even if possible.

[Curmudgeon]

If the DM team is done calling me stubborn, I'll be on my way now, thanks.

White Warlock stepped down from DMing on TSM about 2 weeks ago. His comments are entirely his own opinions.