GF's platform

[fluffmonster]

Its not a tangent, because if it was these nameless disenfranchised would not be cited so often and repeatedly as evidence of the supposed forum hostility which needs to be reigned in. As far as I can tell, this "trend" is one of two lynch-pins in the justification for the clean-up push. It is not just relevant, it is of direct importance.

The brief description offered here seems to include a bunch of intolerant people who couldn't handle the views of others, and I see at least two of these as *good* departures...homophobes and nazis leaving? Good riddance. Free speech seems to have done a laudable job there.

[White Warlock]

Fluff, the goal here is to provide a gaming environment, not to judge people based on their beliefs, origins, color, etc. Providing an opportunity for such things to be presented, debated, addressed, advertised, sets this community up for distractions, a derailing of the intentions of this community... which is to provide a gaming environment... not a debate forum or ideological platform.

[JaydeMoon]

I recall one member in particular that voiced an opinion that some of the hate speech in off-topic, particulartly against anyone with a Christian belief (moderate, fundamentalist, or otherwise), was offensive. He was told STFU and stay out of off-topic, then. While not bad advice (the latter part, not the former), he took it to the next level and quit ALFA. A shame, as he was a mellow dude and a good RPer.

That's one example that stands out to me because the guy was actually pretty cool and rather reasonable

[Vaelahr]

ErrantKnight was his name. The guy's a Forgotten Realms sage. But hey, we need Off-Topic right?

[Mikayla]

WW:

There was a person who quit alfa because of hurtful off-topic discussions he posed to Mikayla, in which he disagreed with her lifestyle, and thus disagreed with this community for having Mik as a participant.

His name was Moosh. And its not a "lifestyle" its just my life.

[White Warlock]

Right Mik, apologies for the wrong use of words.

[Mayhem]

"ALFA's lack of moderation caused a bigot to quit the game!" does not strike me as a particularly pro-moderation argument, though it was rather the exception than the norm...

[Mikayla]

For what its worth, the hostility and negativity of the forums are what is currently driving me away from ALFA. When it started back in June (I think) I didn't say anything about it, I just shut up and started drifting away as I thought I was alone in my opinion about the toxicity of ALFA's boards. Then the new moderation plan was unveiled and suddenly I thought I was not alone - I don't like the anonymity of the moderation and if I were crafting the plan it would have been different I think - but the development and implementation of the plan told me that there were others out there (at least a majority of the Admin plus their appointed moderators) who felt that the boards needed moderation. So, I felt less alone. And I began posting again. But the boards have not changed - indeed, I think the moderation has brought some unity to the elements most needing moderation, resulting in strong push-back and even increased negativity on the boards. As a result, I am resuming my drift away I suppose.

Of course, I am just one person and ALFA will surely survive my loss - and maybe that is the direction ALFA will go and maybe the direction most ALFAns want - that ALFA's boards become a no-rules, no-moderation hostile environment where only thick-skinned people who like anonymous internet flaming like to be. Maybe thats the ALFA of the near future - it just holds no interest for me.

Back in the army we had more people who wanted to play in our gaming group than we could possibly accommodate, so we developed a simple rule - we would only game with those folks we would go drinking with. In short, we gamed with the people we liked and got along with rather than just anyone who happened to play the same game as us. And right now, there are a lot of people in ALFA who don't fit that bill for me - I just find the forums and some of its denizens too hostile to spend much time, energy or effort on anymore, and the people who have (in my view) made it that way I don't really want to play with. So, well, such is life. Anyway, that is just one person's view.

[NickD]

I have "quit" a number of times due to negativity in the forums. I don't make a huge deal out of it, and obviously I keep coming back. However, it's usually stuff in General Discussion that really bothers me. I tend not to take Off Topic seriously.

The first time I left was a couple of months after I first joined. It was related to my suggesting that we should be allowed to have two characters (a view I no longer support). It wasn't the attacks on my opinions that drove me away, it was a completely personal attack that finally did it. Even though traind got banned for a day (and then a week and then a month for creating new accounts to get around the ban), it both shocked and upset me enough to leave, especially as I had never communicated with him prior to his attack. If I hadn't already found a brilliant group of people to play with, it's likely I would never have returned. As it was, it took me about a month to build up the motivation to play again.

Eh. Just my personal experience.

And this should all probably be separated out into another thread rather than GF's platform thread.

[Vaelahr]

"ALFA's lack of moderation caused a bigot to quit the game!" does not strike me as a particularly pro-moderation argument, though it was rather the exception than the norm...

I suspect we wouldn't learn of one's bigotry (or other flaws) if we didn't provide a platform for the demonstration of such.

And of course, we want to keep the good bigots. Intolerance towards conservatism and Judeo-Christianity is encouraged and celebrated here. So what if it drives off sweet-spirit FR scholars like ErrantKnight, good riddance right?

The goal here is to provide a gaming environment, not to judge people based on their beliefs, origins, color, etc. Providing an opportunity for such things to be presented, debated, addressed, advertised, sets this community up for distractions, a derailing of the intentions of this community... which is to provide a gaming environment... not a debate forum or ideological platform.

Yup.

[Mulu]

Unfortunately Nyar, such things as spamming or lolcats serves to undermine productive discussion and also does agitate people who are trying to maintain civil, productive discourse.

Who are these people? Don't look in a mirror. If the goal of moderation is to make all of our discussions civil, the only way to accomplish that is ban all these jag-off gamers that come here and only let old ladies post about knitting.

And don't pretend that flamewars don't happen in admin and DM forums too, forums only accessible by contributors.

It's the game that needs the most work, not the forums. Since we like to make the "zots" argument around here, what is the better use of resources: Engaging in moderation blitzes that cause yet more forum drama and piss a lot of people off, or work on making the game better? Half of our fights here are about the problems with the game, maybe solving those problems will cut down a lot on the acrimony in the forums, eh?

As a journalist, you should understand how suppressing discussion doesn't solve the problems people want to discuss.

And DMFI forums may be clean, but it's practically dead. Like watching grass grow. If the choice is between sterile lifelessness and monkeying around, I'll take the monkeys thank you. After all, it is a game we're talking about, a playful attitude should come with the territory. "Why so serious?"

One of ALFA's fundamental flaws has always been having a goal, yet not ensuring a community structure that encourages a focus to that goal.

Given ALFA's goals of engaging in witchhunts, etc., sometimes its goals are not worth pursuing.

I'm sure even GF would agree that some moderation is required, just because people are people and can get too passionate about their causes or cross the line on teasing, but you have to apply such measures with wisdom, not vindictive "pull the trigger" nastiness. Witch Hunts, whether over perceived powergaming or perceived forum abuse, are never the right answer.

[fluffmonster]

Regarding hate speech, intolerance of that is not just the flip-side of, say, racial hate speech. It is just simple reciprocity. Someone wants to hate gays, that's their personal business...as long as they keep it personal. They start spouting off about how bad it is to be gay though, they are starting a discussion which will earn an equally strong retort. That's what happened to Moosh. Nobody went looking for homophobes, he brought the hostility into it and he got it back out.

So we could decide to just be totally serious. This is about the game and only the game and nothing but the game. We never talk about ourselves, never share stories personal stories or perspectives, never know who we're playing with, never explain where we're coming from in our opinions about things in general or even the game itself I suppose.

The thing is, people are perfectly able to choose this just by keeping quiet about their personal selves. You don't have to have your beliefs questioned ever, you never have to get to know anybody else more than you want to. And don't even tell me that's an unreasonable request because that's exactly what the "serious game" folks are asking for, except you all are demanding it at the point of a sword. If this is really about OT, just put a big sign on it saying the likes of "danger ahead, keep out, enter at own risk, don't come without a torch and a cleric".

You really want to get serious about reducing forum angst, disable PMs. That's where the real trolls do their work.

[Lusipher]

And of course, we want to keep the good bigots. Intolerance towards conservatism and Judeo-Christianity is encouraged and celebrated here. So what if it drives off sweet-spirit FR scholars like ErrantKnight, good riddance right?

I agree. This project has always been fine with a number of "liberal views" but those who have a more conservative view of life have always been openly bashed and picked upon. It has been a double standard that has gone on for way too long. It just depends on who is the Admin of the month in office it seems. Some seemingly turn their back on it and others get involved in it. I personally wish we would stick to just FR and NWN related topics and can Off topic altogether. In other communities they just dont allow sensitive issues like race, gender, politics, etc on their forums...even in off topic.

[Swift]

I personally wish we would stick to just FR and NWN related topics and can Off topic altogether.

Funny sentiment considering you can find more than 1/4 of your searchable posts (191 of 715) in that very forum

On a more serious note, i cannot fathom why this is even still being argued. For anyone that contributes, there are a multitude of forums set up for every specific task and topic we do in ALFA. DM forums, tech forums, infra forums, all civil, all ontop virtually 100% of the time. Isn't this what you guys are after?

You have forums open to all members, it is inevitable that passions will run high from time to time and threads occasionally will stop being full of hippie love and sunshine. Increasingly (especially in the current moderator climate) Off Topic is the only place you can go to have a bit of a joke and a bit of a laugh without much threat of getting moderated.

Regardless of how hard you try to suppress discussion, people are going to have it, and that means sometimes people are going to disagree. Anyone noticed that despite the mod blitz, people are still shooting their mouths off at others in GD? Some of them people who have voiced their preference to have such forums removed no less.

Get over the idea. Let a place remain that people can just chill out. God knows the moderators are doing their best to remove humor whenever it appears.

[Lusipher]

Lusipher wrote:
I personally wish we would stick to just FR and NWN related topics and can Off topic altogether.


Funny sentiment considering you can find more than 1/4 of your searchable posts (191 of 715) in that very forum

Id be happy to see it go, though, Swift. I usually only post about something i find on the net in there anymore so it doesnt bother me.

Swift, for as loud as you and your bud want to get about "get rid of moderation" there are going to be a number of folks who are going to get just as loud to keep it around. Its not gonna go away this time no matter how loud you guys get. It may get tweaked, but your days of having free reign is over.