Static/Scripted Alignment Changes
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- dergon darkhelm
- Fionn In Disguise
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Static/Scripted Alignment Changes
Just providing a new place to talk about so that Teric's static idea thread doesn't disintigrate.
My take: Didn't like it in almost every instance in ALFA NWN1 where it was applied.
My take: Didn't like it in almost every instance in ALFA NWN1 where it was applied.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
This is going to come down to philosophy.
Some will argue that the motive matters more than the act, in which case statics should never award alignment changes.
Others will argue that an act is evil/lawful/good/chaotic no matter why you carried it out, and thus scripted alignment changes are fine.
We need a consensus on these opinions before we can agree whether scripted alignment changes are possible.
***
I will say this, however: DMs seem to be much more ready to shift you towards evil than towards good, and I suspect builders will be the same.
My PC picked up evil points for not abandoning an important quest to chase after an innocent passer by who was in trouble. But did he recieve "good" points for the uncountable number of times he altruistically put himself in harms way? Guess.
Some will argue that the motive matters more than the act, in which case statics should never award alignment changes.
Others will argue that an act is evil/lawful/good/chaotic no matter why you carried it out, and thus scripted alignment changes are fine.
We need a consensus on these opinions before we can agree whether scripted alignment changes are possible.
***
I will say this, however: DMs seem to be much more ready to shift you towards evil than towards good, and I suspect builders will be the same.
My PC picked up evil points for not abandoning an important quest to chase after an innocent passer by who was in trouble. But did he recieve "good" points for the uncountable number of times he altruistically put himself in harms way? Guess.
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- Swift
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In all the years of ALFA (at the very least) the camps of each philosophy have not moved an inch closer to a consensus.Mayhem wrote:We need a consensus on these opinions before we can agree whether scripted alignment changes are possible.
I am firmly of the opinion that alignment is how the world views you to be, and, as such, what is generally considered evil is still evil, regardless of the motivation, unless you can prove otherwise.
However, despite this, i am totally against scripted alignment changes mainly because it is alot harder to script in good/lawful shifts compared to evil/chaotic shifts, since so often good/lawful shifts come from things that a static simply cannot track (risking your own life to save another etc)
- dergon darkhelm
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The only DM awarded alignment adjustments my PCs have received in NWN1 and NWN2 are 2 shifts toward good of 2 points each.DMs seem to be much more ready to shift you towards evil than towards good, and I suspect builders will be the same.
((although one DM *did* attempt to give Malcer 10 points of evil for murdering some innoncent woman in an alley in Luskan, but he was already at 0%

PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
- dergon darkhelm
- Fionn In Disguise
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Brainstorm! (alright, maybe its just a brain drizzle)
How about instead of shifting a PCs alignment, completion of certain statics could give the PC a weightless no-drop token signifying the action done.
((example: if PC decides to pickpocket the guy he was supposed to bargain with for the gem he can finish the quest but receives a little blue token.))
As tokens add up DMs that know the PC and his/her motivations could award shifts if they deem it appropriate.
How about instead of shifting a PCs alignment, completion of certain statics could give the PC a weightless no-drop token signifying the action done.
((example: if PC decides to pickpocket the guy he was supposed to bargain with for the gem he can finish the quest but receives a little blue token.))
As tokens add up DMs that know the PC and his/her motivations could award shifts if they deem it appropriate.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
- Brokenbone
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Problem is evil PCs can do a "good" seeming act for any of 1000 different evil motives. Simplest is "gain the trust of the local guards" type of example. Save a lost puppy from such-and-such neighbourhood, where you were happy to case that neighbourhood for a kidnap & ransom scheme on your mind.
Good PCs can seldom do an "evil" act while maintaining good alignment. Static granter asks you to kidnap a couple of orphans for the slave trade, odds are your successful completion of that static without a DM = evil. Of course, involving a DM to somehow "sting" the bad guys means it's not a static anymore, but that's a separate topic.
The same can also be true with Chaotics doing something that has a Lawful output... they just may have done it on a whim, and have no thought of that society's values and whatnot in doing it. But a Lawful doing something for the underworld or some other anti-establishment set of NPCs, well... if you're going in conflict with that society's laws and customs, maybe you should end up with chaotic points. However, maybe your PC has an internalized code which the actions are consistent with, so this may be a little more dicey, to throw around points. Lawful Evil worshipper of Mask may daily be "breaking laws" regarding property, since he keeps stealing anything not nailed down, but he is being completely faithful to a Maskarran value of "going to bed richer than you woke up" (I'm paraphrasing the Faiths & Pantheons dogma, it's just meant as a "code" example). Basically choosing to hold the faith's dogma as a main value to adhere to, and to hell with the civil laws of City XYZ.
Anyhow, I didn't much like alignment changing statics in NWN1 either, but some of the nastier ones (murder for hire type things), I can definitely understand evil points accruing. The rest are debateable, so much so that a DM maybe ought to be involved.
Maybe a "token" idea has some merit, still, how would redeeming such work? Monthly interview / PM with a DM to "explain acquisition of tokens and motivations associated with such for your PC", with on the spot alignment shifts in bulk? Guess it could work, but it would be, y'know, some work.
Good PCs can seldom do an "evil" act while maintaining good alignment. Static granter asks you to kidnap a couple of orphans for the slave trade, odds are your successful completion of that static without a DM = evil. Of course, involving a DM to somehow "sting" the bad guys means it's not a static anymore, but that's a separate topic.
The same can also be true with Chaotics doing something that has a Lawful output... they just may have done it on a whim, and have no thought of that society's values and whatnot in doing it. But a Lawful doing something for the underworld or some other anti-establishment set of NPCs, well... if you're going in conflict with that society's laws and customs, maybe you should end up with chaotic points. However, maybe your PC has an internalized code which the actions are consistent with, so this may be a little more dicey, to throw around points. Lawful Evil worshipper of Mask may daily be "breaking laws" regarding property, since he keeps stealing anything not nailed down, but he is being completely faithful to a Maskarran value of "going to bed richer than you woke up" (I'm paraphrasing the Faiths & Pantheons dogma, it's just meant as a "code" example). Basically choosing to hold the faith's dogma as a main value to adhere to, and to hell with the civil laws of City XYZ.
Anyhow, I didn't much like alignment changing statics in NWN1 either, but some of the nastier ones (murder for hire type things), I can definitely understand evil points accruing. The rest are debateable, so much so that a DM maybe ought to be involved.
Maybe a "token" idea has some merit, still, how would redeeming such work? Monthly interview / PM with a DM to "explain acquisition of tokens and motivations associated with such for your PC", with on the spot alignment shifts in bulk? Guess it could work, but it would be, y'know, some work.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
As I see it, the bad guy who saves orphans should get good points -- should probably get more good points (some points for being nonevil, and some points for being good). If he's gaining the trust of the local guards so that he can knife the bejeezuhs out of a handful of politicians, well he can have evil points for that; in fact, I'd say he should get more evil points (points for murder and points for betrayal; sources that give a longer-than-a-paragraph discussion of alignment tend to give "gaining trust to exploit it" its own little category among evil things to do.)
At least in my opinion, putting things like that in statics would be important, especially in a world of divine spellcasters. How long is Mask or Cyric going to bless that poor bastard out saving orphans every day? Even if it's "to gain trust," I'd bet all of the evil deities but Malar (who would let you be CN anyway) would object to the practice, and scold priests for 'going soft.' I'd think it important to keep as good a track of the karmic implications of actions, though, and we'd may as well script it where it's possible. Alignment in D&D is a statistic, after all, and having the character sheet read wrong breaks a healthy portion of our game.
At least in my opinion, putting things like that in statics would be important, especially in a world of divine spellcasters. How long is Mask or Cyric going to bless that poor bastard out saving orphans every day? Even if it's "to gain trust," I'd bet all of the evil deities but Malar (who would let you be CN anyway) would object to the practice, and scold priests for 'going soft.' I'd think it important to keep as good a track of the karmic implications of actions, though, and we'd may as well script it where it's possible. Alignment in D&D is a statistic, after all, and having the character sheet read wrong breaks a healthy portion of our game.
If you're depending on dm's to keep track of alignment, good luck. It's an area often looked over and missed. I beleive I had only 1 PC ever get alignment shift points...by 1 dm. Be prepared to keep the alignment you start with the majority of the time. As for shifts due to static....yes...and no.
I don't want an alignment shift of 1 point toward good for patrolling a road, especially when such a static is repeatable. NO ALIGNMENT CHANGES for repeatable statics.
I do want an alignment change for significant static quests...Save X from Y, Assassinate X because hesa goody goody, ect, of a couple of points, (2-3)...
Just my own thoughts.
I don't want an alignment shift of 1 point toward good for patrolling a road, especially when such a static is repeatable. NO ALIGNMENT CHANGES for repeatable statics.
I do want an alignment change for significant static quests...Save X from Y, Assassinate X because hesa goody goody, ect, of a couple of points, (2-3)...
Just my own thoughts.
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- Nalo Jade
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Too complex to allow an automated process. Leave alignment changes in the hands of DMs.
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- fluffmonster
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some statics I came across had 10-point alignment shifts which was clearly a wrenching shift. I don't have a problem with small scripted alignment shifts though...1 point will not usually have big impacts, but is a good way of saying "hey, this act was pretty lawful". I would agree that in general, mundane activities like patrolling a road or fetching herbs are not alignment-change worthy.
I also believe alignment reflects how the world sees you (even if you're doing it alone
), not how you see yourself. If you keep saving orphans, you should get good points no matter the reason...if you ever do use their trust toward some nefarious scheme, *then* you should get some evil points.
I also believe alignment reflects how the world sees you (even if you're doing it alone

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- Brokenbone
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Guess the problem re: orphans is that if a script "reliably" gives you a couple of good points, a DM might not award evil points for using your intelligence about the orphanage's lack of security measures to lead a squad of Zhentarim kidnappers into the place and clean out all the livestock. You have some laughs, get some XP, get paid, but maybe aren't pushy if you do not get any evil points for it, since being treated to a good time often means you push any inner critic down. Ie, shut up and enjoy what you've got as opposed to suggesting improvements.
Since alignment only matters to a small collection of character classes (clerics and deity alignments sometimes the trickiest), or unless True Neutral, what protection spells might work a little against you, it's seldom worth "managing" the topic.
Since alignment only matters to a small collection of character classes (clerics and deity alignments sometimes the trickiest), or unless True Neutral, what protection spells might work a little against you, it's seldom worth "managing" the topic.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
- Teric neDhalir
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Perhaps it's easier to think about reputation than alignment. If every PC had a persistent variable on 'em that was added to or taken away from depending on statics done (or DM granted - should be a pretty simple wand/add to the DMFI deal) then you could add conditionals onto convos that recognised whether the PC was a pillar of the community or a wrong 'un. The town guards might also stick an arrow or two in you on sight; "It's Teric neDhalir that notorious ne'er-do-well!" I don't know how the Tech folks feel about thrashing the database like that, tho'..
[An aside: My main problem with the alignment system is that Law is not the opposite of Chaos, Order is. I blame Michael Moorcock]
[An aside: My main problem with the alignment system is that Law is not the opposite of Chaos, Order is. I blame Michael Moorcock]
- fluffmonster
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