ALFA Evolved.

[Mulu]

Why is it that the people calling for bans/rules/whatever are the ones who historically are some of the worst offenders? I could just as easily have made this post in Duck's thead.

Ironically, it was the 100 degree California heat wave that drove me in here. Silly me, trying to get out of the heat by reading ALFA.

Now I'm going to have to go read the election threads that caused this latest "ban all flamers respons," or maybe someone can just give me a synopsis and save me the time. I've always said election threads caused the worst flames here.

[White Warlock]

Why is it that the people calling for bans/rules/whatever are the ones who historically are some of the worst offenders? I could just as easily have made this post in Duck's thread.

Why is it that broad labeling makes it easier to dismiss valid arguments presented? Granted, Duck is evil incarnate, but the issue, and the concerns presented, are sincere. Motives i'm not always sure about.

So Mulu... what's your motive for trying to trivialize this longstanding concern? Feel threatened by the idea you may be asked to be civil? I do recall a time when you were civil, and even a time when you fought to address concerns. Unfortunately, it seems you may have fallen into the "i could care less" camp, where scornful remarks are reserved for ALFA discussions instead of real life problems.

This is part of the issue Mulu. Many problematic members, and i dare say many that i consider friends within this community, have given up trying to address issues here, in much the same way you have. They were once prominent participants who found themselves either 'pulted or plundered and now resolve themselves to reckless rudeness. It's understandable, for i left on many occasions in order to 'avoid' converting to such a mentality. The embittered create bitterness, which in turn emboldens the embittered to foster the fuel that festers in the forums --- and in chat.

Well, that was fun, but i hope my play on words doesn't detract from the dialogue. Moreso, i hope it does not add more drama.

Thanks for reading

[DarkHin]

It's important to act in a way that fosters mature behaviour than rattling your brain over a program that will fix the problem. If someone's being a jackass, just don't respond. Any response vindicates the jackassness. ALFA is a product of the people involved in it and how they act, not so much the rules we have in place for dealing with jackassness; so act in a mature way that we'll breed more mature behaviour. I doesn't matter what rules or programs for dealing with problems we have if everyone in the community has a piss poor attitude.

[White Warlock]

It's important to act in a way that fosters mature behaviour than rattling your brain over a program that will fix the problem. If someone's being a jackass, just don't respond. Any response vindicates the jackassness. ALFA is a product of the people involved in it and how they act, not so much the rules we have in place for dealing with jackassness; so act in a mature way that we'll breed more mature behaviour. I doesn't matter what rules or programs for dealing with problems we have if everyone in the community has a piss poor attitude.

I truly wish it were that easy DarkHin, but there are, and have been, many members who behave(d) with maturity (whatever 'maturity' entails in a virtual community <wink> ). Fostering maturity is a different matter altogether and it assumes we, as anonymous participants in a digital media, are able to encourage agreed-upon definers of responsible actions and behaviors in others holding to anonymity. The problem returns to environment, not merely individuals. The environment does not discourage 'jackarseness,' and in some ways even goes so far as to encourage.

As well, and as i inferred in the last paragraph, many have managed to don the hat of relativism, convincing themselves they aren't being jackarses. No, the community has already set the standards. It's up to the community to enforce the standards so relativism can no longer be worn as an excuse.

[Mulu]

Why is it that the people calling for bans/rules/whatever are the ones who historically are some of the worst offenders? I could just as easily have made this post in Duck's thread.

For that matter I could just as easily have made that post in WW's thread.

IMHO, the passions here get raised when contentious game issues and actions are being discussed. Off topic may get flamey, but it's not terribly important. What matters to the members here are things like: Inclusion/modification of races/classes, DM authority v player autonomy, etc. The community members here have different and valid opinions on these issues, but ALFA as a democratic gaming community needs consensus, or at least rules. Like any democratic system, rules are subject to revision or reversal, leading to a lack of permanency on issues, for example on the issue of levels of moderation which comes up with incredible persistence, and yet is never resolved.

I could be snide and say the constant whining about maturity levels is itself immature, and for that matter the hypocrisy of serious and serial offenders being the ones asking for censorship that would have absolutely gotten them banned in the past seems odd at best. Is the idea that you have to be saved from yourselves? If you want ALFA to be a kinder, gentler place, lead by example.

Besides, this place really isn't as bad as it used to be. Rusty caused a lot of harm, but that should now be water under the bridge. A thread created only for bashing Jayde seemed a bit out of place, but it's certainly not without precedent. I've had threads devoted to bashing me, and I believe you have as well. Yet, in the context of elections, it's not like we have Rovian tactics at play here. Elections bring out the dirty laundry, to be sure, but as long as we run ALFA as a democracy it will need elections, and elections are an opportunity to voice opinions on many things, including those running for election. Having finally read all the posts that apparently caused this latest call for bannings from those who have historically most deserved them, I have to admit very little of it seemed all that bad. Election dirty laundry isn't pretty, but it may be a necessary evil. The alternatives would be to either stifle opinion, or cease to be a democracy.

As Hialmar put it in the other thread, "the main problem with moderation is that the moderators are the first ones to burn out and quit or disappear." It's a thankless job to be sure, of many thankless jobs in a volunteer community.

[White Warlock]

Mulu, I have stated already that i participated in some mud-slinging, which was mostly in response to mud being slung at me. If the debate is about our performance record, then we're all guilty. The issue here is not the past, but the future. ALFA condoned such things, and still does. This... needs to change.

If you wish to discuss the future of ALFA, then by all means, let's discuss. Pushing any further dirty laundry in the hopes of discrediting the content presented in our messages is merely character assassination and is one of the things this community needs to discourage. Over the years I, and others, have provided plenty of support/assist/advice to the development of ALFA. At times, we became frustrated at the abuse received and responded in kind. You, as well, participated in that abuse, so it's truly not clear what it is you are trying to prove by your present resistance to these discussions. I would prefer productive discussion, instead of disrespect.

Respectfully,
Roy

[Mulu]

Well, respect is earned to be sure, and actually I do respect you, up to a point. I know from the past, though, that you have a pattern: You start off with grand ideas, some of which have valid content, some of which seems pretty poor, then you descend into a flamefest after folks fail to accept your grand ideas. This is why I have a hard time accepting your call for civility, I strongly suspect you won't follow it yourself.

Maybe it will be different this time. I hope it is.