Official 4ed Forgotten Realms Thread Spoilers and discussion

[Kest]

Converting Characters to 4e (Haha not really)

[MShady]

A simplification of the combat was neccesary. I'm running a play by post right now... 10 PCs versus 100 + tanarukk orcs. It takes me like 8 hours to resolve each turn. Granted I break this up as players post but yeah...

There is an update to 3.5E out there using the open source license that is quite clever I hear, though. If it makes DMing easier, I'd go with that.

I'd still rather play 3.5E, but I'd prefer to DM in 4E.

[Stefan]

Also, there are the "roles" each class fits into - controller, striker, defender, etc. Again, it sounds like we are putting together an MMO team (tank, nuke, puller, etc).

Yep this sounds like a tragedy to me, especially for ALFA like projects. System of roles is formal party organization based on powergaming philosophy, whose purpose is to maximize the efficiency of party in farming, boss-killing, questing (for rewards), whatever. To hear about roles so formalized in DnD is something I honestly didn't expect.

Yep. All bitching, no substance, just like last time. D&D will continue.

Last time DnD was evolving into something relatively new (as far as I know). This time however, I fear that it evolves into surrogate of already existing and currently very popular mass-cultural stuff that was, so far, separated matter. That's a major difference.

I am not fond at all to "fossil" way of thinking, i.e. those grumpy people who non-stop claim how the older stuff is better than new stuff. However, I don't believe that's the case in this matter, even if there are a lot of fossil-type objections regarding this matter in general from wide variety of people on the net, naturally.

If they were to remove HPs completely and introduce new cRPG system based on full realtime physics, speed of a swing and kinetic energy to wound and hurt, toughness of the armor and stuff like that followed with all new rich and needed RPG rules to support all that and in the same time don't cross into TPS/FPS field (leaving PCs to fight on each own while player is there just to observe his PC and issue additional orders where he sees those fit, like it is now)... that would have been music to my ears, for example (despite if something like that would work or fail miserably... it is worth of a try).

I don't see where different combat mechanics is a cause of concern for roleplaying. Mechanics are mechanics.

Roleplaying depends on game rules and mechanics quite much. Even on combat mechanics. Example, in WoW you could not have used anti-undead abilities on undead players. Who cares for IC... it is important that things are in proper balance, obviously. But while I can understand that in WoW, who does not pretend to be serious RP game, I cannot understand that in DnD and some steps are taken in that direction already. Elimination of RP spells, many classes, multiclassing and required material to fight some monsters (which is great idea that should have been developed further, not removed!) or evil paladins... oh man. According to what I have seen, now PCs (with all their pompous abilities) appear to be something special comparing to average NPCs... not good for overall well-being of serious RP surrounding.

If players are limited through game mechanics, we are in for a wild and senseless RPing where everybody are going to interpret wide variety of stuff the way they want or if they don't, game will be very poor RP medium. If inertia based on rules (very base of the game), starts pulling game away from RPing, not even DM can do much about it in a long run. Of course, everything can be folded in roleplaying but way too cheap naivety (due to lack of care) along with clear wish of designers to pull this game into powergaming, will form the mentioned inertia. And trivial RPing is something I generally have no wish to be part.

Enforcing the roles upon the classes is example of limiting roleplaying in favor of powergaming efficiency and pushes game toward sport-type field with all that talk about balance and what not (like WoW, Quake3 or Counter-Strike) with the DM as sort of referee. That essentially pushes default future DnD even further away from true RPing.

I disagree. Although I dont roleplay in MMOs I know a lot of people who actually do roleplay in MMOs. They have meetings, events, and make back story for why they are going to do something inside a MMO game. My only issue with what you said is you akin MMO players to people who cant hold their attention but only one thing. Its absurd. I know many doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who play MMOs and can distinguish between Killfest and roleplaying.

My experience tells me that some heavy RPers in MMO were able to remain as such for only so long. Basically, the more hardcore RPer the longer player was able to resist. But in the end they would either leave the game or fall to powergaming. In the game where main value is the power (expressed either in symbols or material stuff), I doubt any DM would help much.

There is one important distinction in roleplaying that must be made. There are two types of roleplaying important for this matter, RPing as eyecandy and RPing as in-game tool.

- RPing as eyecandy (also named by me as false RPing) is no different than turning on "water reflections" or "point light shadows" in graphics settings. It is only possible type of RPing in commercial MMORPGs. But essentially, it is not required. Player that RP and player that don't, are in the same position with same options to carry on. Personally, despite it can be beautiful, I don't think that this type of RPing worth much but it is nice to have (as any graphical detail).

- RPing as in-game tool (also named by me as true RPing), is the real thing. Basically, RPing is player's the most strongest tool. Stronger than any piece of equipment, level or spell which opens the whole new world of (non-powergaming) options. True roleplaying beats grinding. This kind of RPing is impossible in any commercial use because DM role is impossible to formalize, as I believe so.

I have been browsing through PhB 4.0 and I felt like I was reading rethoric of standard WoW-like MMORPGs, pompeus in every way. If the worst happens, I guess Open-Source will save us... it must! ;)

[JaydeMoon]

http://dongyrn.blogspot.com/2008/04/d-4 ... aming.html