Vs. Rivermoot

Arkan Bladesinger · Post by **Arkan Bladesinger** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:02 am

For what it´s worth I think there would´ve been a perfect IC reason for some folk to stay protecting the village, taking in accord how village militia was ordered (which can be read in other thread, so this is not meta) and how nobody knew how many, where and when.

If I didn´t have a dayoff next day I would´ve had to miss this as well, but "luckily" was able to stay til 8am my time when starting to drop dead on keyboard, having to make an IC/OOC excuse and the quest was still going on. It was huge fun and thanks to DM´s, but I really was a zombie next day, heh.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:30 am

Sadly, I can't even count the number of times I have IC missed the finale of major plotlines my PC's have been intimately involved in since I started playing this game -- and not just on ALFA. It happens, even with the best scheduling and announcements. Chalk it up to the shortcomings of an online game played across multiple timezones and in and around real life. More communication of these things with the player base -- yes please. TSM DM's feeling discouraged -- no -- at least I hope not. IMO you are all doing a fabulous job. And Wynna is right -- there is no reason this has to end. Heck I logged on very late the night of the finale out in Quaervaar and Wynna DM'd an encounter between my PC and a half beaten band of orcs that were obviously refugees from the big battle. So it has begun already =) We as players can all roll with it IC I'm sure. DM's please just keep the fun coming =D

Sintaqx · Post by **Sintaqx** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:19 pm

With respect to the OOC-ness of posting information/schedule of major events on the forums we all have lives outside of the game but our characters should be assumed to be pursuing their personal activities while not logged in. They don't magically vanish from the world when we log out. As such, while it would be nice to learn of everything our character would know IC it's simply not possible. We rely on the forums to inform us, OOC, what we should know IC, and it's up to each player to separate what they should and should not know from the public posts.

Now most developers, myself included, have a saying they live by:

Never trust the end user.

I think that this, unfortunately, applies to the DM/Player relationship in ALFA and makes trusting players to separate IC knowledge from OOC knowledge difficult at best, because some will take advantage of the OOC info and modify their IC actions accordingly, either consciously or subconsciously.

Magonushi · Post by **Magonushi** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:05 pm

Mikayla wrote:DMs need to trust the players

Mik that's like saying that players should trust the DMs.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:03 pm

Not looking to make excuses, but it's very difficult to try to coordinate events to take into account the daily IC changes that occur. As always the answer to making this situation better would be to have more DMs and builders to accommodate the pursuits of all the pc's. This will come eventually in the form of an additional server.

When you have a group of roleplayers who are as knowledgeable and devoted as we have here, it's not easy to try and keep up with them especially when our DM coverage is sporadic and events can pass through the hands of 6 different DMs.

With respect to this specific event, we did have a build up to it which was reflected in the posted rumours. Certainly it would have been nice to have more of the PCs involved who have had extended relationship with this plot, but it's not always possible. Many of those who were there for the "event" didn't get to take it all in as Wynna, Paaz and myself (mostly Wynna) covered a good 6+ hours of DMing.

As a small tangent, TT mentioned that larger scale plots may not be preferable, is this the general consensus?

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:15 pm

I think large plots are fine, but you have to break them down into little bits and pieces suitable for adventuring groups of 6-8. More than 8 people or so in a party and things go to hell very quickly. In fact, I would say break it down into groups of 6 or less - its the only way to get any real role-playing in.

So - large plots are great ... when broken down into manageable pieces.

As for using the rumors thread to give notice - it doesn't work. It just doesn't. Most of us have day jobs, and kids, and lovers, and committments, so, when I read a rumor in the thread, we cannot simply drop everything and stay logged in for the next 48 hours hoping something will happen. We need actual scheduling - a simple "event to happen at 9PM EST" would do. And if we cannot make it, thats on us - but at least we get a chance to try to make it.

Our PCs live in that world - but we don't. So, we need some OOC scheduling to effect the IC reality that our PCs would be there. While I might have a day job, and a child, and a lover, and .. whatever .. my PC is (supposed to be) still standing by that stupid bridge in Rivermoot. But, I cannot actually spend all my time logged in doing that waiting for something to happen. We players need a little help from y'all.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:43 pm

I like the 6-8 player idea, so long as it is not the same 6-8 players over and over, demanding to be a part of a plot because their characters would be involved...especially when they are already involved with other dms in different subgroups. I don't like complaining, I've never been a complainer, so I'll leave it at that.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:23 pm

Dan:

I like the 6-8 player idea, so long as it is not the same 6-8 players over and over, demanding to be a part of a plot because their characters would be involved...especially when they are already involved with other dms in different subgroups. I don't like complaining, I've never been a complainer, so I'll leave it at that.

I agree actually, and a few weeks ago I wrote a suggestion to Darren regarding the orc war that involved the creation of several 6-8 player groups, some in different time-zones, to play out the 'end' of the orc-war. In that way, a lot more people could be involved in the climax, without having an 18+ person party.

Sintaqx · Post by **Sintaqx** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:05 pm

In this particular cas a little more communication would have helped, the efforts the DM team made that I saw from a player's perspective were astounding to craft a single event out of multiple groups over the course of 6+ hours.

Multiple smaller events over different time zones may have been preferable, alot of coordination and planning time, but doable.

I personally prefer when a large overarching plot is broken down into smaller pieces that can be handled by multiple smaller groups with more specialized interests, either occupation-based (like rangers or soldiers) or organization-based (like the Argent Owls, House Invincible, or some small adventuring group). Sometimes a conclusion needs to be a large event though.

Scheduling through a rumors thread doesn't really work, Players and DMs all need a fairly concrete time to plan around. If they can't make it, well, it happens sometimes. But it is nice to know and to have the choice, especially if you are or have been a key part of the storyline. I rarely read the Rivermoot rumors thread, as my character is rarely in or around that area. However, especially in this case, she was out scouting as well as could be done with the current server resources/areas and would know something big was happening. As it was it was only luck that I was logged in and even found out about what was happening, and I was preparing to log off when word reached me in-game.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:36 am

Obould backhands the goblin accross the throne room it's neck snapping as it slid down the wall. Even his ogre guards leaned away from him as if to try and avoid the anger that seemed to radiate from him.

He laughed....

Those in the cavern exchanged shocked looks. King Manyarrows, the tyrant who held the horde together in an iron fist as it hadn't been in long memory, was laughing?

He leaned back and took a long drink from his dwarfskull cup as he stopped his deep hideous cackle. So the blue tuskers had failed then. No matter, their chief would suffer if not already dead...he couldn't even remember the orcs name among the many that paid homage to him.

The foolish March men thought they had won something no doubt. But a few rabble guarding a walled town had proved nothing! He frowned a moment, his spys had been watching the defenses a long time....maybe theorganisation was worthy of some note. Certainly the banding together of the factions of humans and their filthy companions, and the defenses they had raised, work they had done, and vigils they had kept over the tendays had meant the failure of the final assult even against only half their number. Such organisation in greater numbers could be a problem if more flocked to their banners. Perhaps there were even a few figures of note that his ogre mages and assasins would have to attend to in time....some in silver...some in red...and some, strangely, in black! He would need to cull these bands of women and men quickly

He shrugged. All would eventually fall before the horde. He stood and walked from the cavern deciding if he would send his next raid against the dwarves or those eternally painful tribesmen who insanely continued to attack him in his mountains!! Perhaps his wargs needed a run...

He grabbed the elf woman by the neck and dragger her to his chamber. The fight had gone out of her eyes....He grinned evily. He would change that in the next moments....

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:39 pm

I am very much in favor of breaking down large plots into smaller events for each involved player faction. A party of 6-8 sounds right to permit quality RP and avoid a lag fest. Separate events tailored to each involved group, each with their own mini climax, as Sintaqx describes would be ideal. Having tried to run such events myself I fully realize how difficult they can be to coordinate and pull off, and hope the DM team understands how much their efforts are appreciated. This plot format involves the most players in large plotlines and provides each group with their own form of closure regardless if they are involved in the grand finale battle. OOC scheduling is also a good idea and essential IMO.

It should go without saying in a community of experienced RPers like ALFA that we all share a common goal as players and DM's -- to create a quality RP experience that we all can enjoy. Perhaps that is a naive notion but I am an optimist. The suggestions in this thread provide a great template for creating a cooperative environment where that can happen. Hopefully all can take this as constructive feedback, which was always my intent and that of the other posters here I believe. =)