The Warlock Challenge! Fabulous Prizes to be Won!

[Magonushi]

I think the main argument against Flee The Scene isn't how well it affects a solo warlock but how, when grouped, a warlock can become a haste battery.

You do know that this is the only buff a lock can give to other friendlies right?

While perma-haste is grand (and this will require the warlock to be out of action casting this invocation every 5 rounds) I don't think it's really broken when you consider other spell casters at around 6th to 8th level. Clerics can cast single spells that heal for 68 hit points every time, wizards can cast mad buffing spells like heroism, stoneskin, and of course haste, and bards start getting into a nice variety of songs that are both expendable and permanent.

[Mayhem]

If we're worried about folks wanting to group up with a level 6 warlock, i fail to see the problem with that. Folks will also want to group up with a level 6 cleric for similar reasons, or a level 6 bard. Support cat is support.

The only issue is if they are overpowered solo, and thats what needs to be tested.

As for this theory that they can go in and pick off things one by one with impunity, that could well be but i want to see it in the cloakwood at night.

Sintaqx can you spare me 10 mins to help this blind squirrel find a nut? I'll be around after 5:30pm ish West coast time.

Curiously, the whole spell list in PNP for a warlock is designed to be the antethesis of "support". All the helpful spells are personal, even "dispel magic" has a "hurts the recipient" clause to make you more relutant to use it to free friends from hostile enchantments. Warlock should not be support cat.

I honestly think their best analogue is a range-based fighter, which is generally speaking a pretty poor choice in NWN.

Edit - the point being, we should reomve the "haste the party" ability and replace it with something more in line to the PHP flee the scene ability.

[AcadiusLost]

I don't know, using a power called "Flee the Scene", which is an adaption of an illusion/dimension door escaping power, to buff the party for more effective combat? That's the opposite of fleeing the scene. We could rename the power as "Win the Scene", I guess.

The "Flee the Scene" handling that was recommended in Standards was to recode it as a variant on expeditious retreat, so it's useful for... say, fleeing a scene, but not so much for the opposite. Cipher has said he will handle coding that part, shouldn't be too burdensome.

I think extended cooldown would assuage most of the concerns with regard to Walk Unseen as well, though I'm not sure if warlock players would feel that unfairly limits their options. I've said before, a the appear/blast/disappear combo seems fair enough for a warlock, given their limitation in flexibility; I'd prefer to just have a good way of enforcing it's usage so we don't get it being used in an absurd fashion that exploits poor AI and rewards very highly for minimal risk. Scripted controls are always on, and not subject to bias in enforcement, nor do they rob the precious time of DMs for surveillance/reporting/enforcement which nobody enjoys doing.

Anything that is a "rule" which is "heavily enforced", but which has to be sought out in the forums, or discovered amongst a list of Serious Offenses can be a problem- if it's not something intuitive, it's going to be missed by many members, especially new members (or old ones who keep away from the forums). If the "ignorance is no excuse" hammer gets swung on people for not spending enough time in the forums reading, that's less than ideal.

Oh, and back to the modified "Cloakwood Challenge", I'd expect warlock hit and tun tactics to also be especially difficult in densely built and low-visibility areas, as those tend to be pretty tricky to even do normal combat in. Best demonstration of the problem technique would be in the kind of open, rolling hills that make up most of the wilderness on both of our Live servers, TSM and OAS2. Almost all the outdoor encounter territory on both servers allows the sort of free navigation and long-range attacks that make the technique troublesome.

[ayergo]

OK. Can someone show it to me on the OAS then?

[hollyfant]

we're talking about firing off a super-long-range damage attack (longer than bow range), than turning invisible and moving to get the creature AI to give up looking for you. Then, blast again, invis again. change position, blast again, invis again.

We may need to distinguish between being overpowered (which this is), cheating (which this is not) and engine abuse (which this touches).

If we feel certain abilities or combinations thereof "break the game", mechanicaly or in spirit, we have to step in. But let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater. If a Warlock with these two feats is an exploit waiting to happen, then either warn players they'll be under scrutiny when they combine them or ban Warlocks with these two feats. Simple, no?

The original premise of the threat, to build and demonstrate abusive builds, is a very good one. I think I posted my Druid of First Level Doom somewhere already, and we could always do with more. Knowledge is power. Foretold is forewarned. Knowing is half the battle. Etc.

[Sintaqx]

I'll be around after about 5pm Pacific time Thursday and able to help test (had to go rescue a friend's computer Wednesday).

I built up a dreaded level 6 halfling warlock, completely twinked stats (18 dex, 14 con, 14 cha) and gave him Eldritch spear, draining blast, leaps and bounds, and Walk Unseen. For feats he has Dash, weapon focus ranged touch, and Combat casting. No equipment. I'll use the same build in the cloakwood

Another build using the same character has Flee the scene. Makes for a fast, tough to hit character, but not as strong as Walk Unseen I think. I'd like to try both and see what happens.

[ayergo]

My time is going to be pretty limited tonight but if you send me your bic i'll get it in the server vault for you. ayergovich@yahoo.com

There's some talk that it won't work in the forest but its worth checking anyway. If we can also get someone with OAS access that'd be grand and we can test it out there to boot.

[ayergo]

Sintaqx is the man. Here are some preliminary results from testing, much more to be done before i'll draw any conclusions but this is most helpful:

I did a couple tests in Voldo's Arena (little module used to level and test). The arena isn't very large, you can target anything in the area and I found that using Eldritch Spear and Walk Unseen a level 6 had a 30% chance of taking down a Dire Bear, and the spear's range was barely enough time to cast the Walk Unseen invocation before the bear was on you like a hemmoroid. Once during each of my test fights the bear saw through the invisibility by hearing me and when that happened there was no hope of escape. With perfect timing of casting the invisibility and entering stealth there may be a way to completely avoid most detection.

Against multiple slower, weaker targets the spear + draining blast + walk unseen worked well, but again the attackers were almost in melee by the time you got off the second invocation. there was no chance of getting off more than one blast before needing to disappear again. The build is very vulnerable to ranged attacks.

In testing Flee the Scene I was able to barely defeat the dire bear every time, but it was very, very close. With a long open area to run in it would have been better. Against the larger groups of lesser creatures Flee the Scene worked rather well, the bonus to AC coming in handy and I was able to occasionally get two blasts off between castings of FtS.

I don't know of many other builds where a level 6 could solo a dire bear, maybe the Doomboar Druid with a lucky Hold Animal casting or a power attacking heavy armor/tower shield axe fighter. With gear appropriate for the level (even with ALFA's standards... ha... ha...) The barb/fighter would probably do as well as the warlock, especially since there really isn't alot of gear that helps the warlock in this kind of situation. Both would need healing afterwards, though the fighter would need more.

Some basic vitals for the hin dread warlock:
HP: max hp with 14 con: 48
AC: +1 Size, +4 Dex, +3 Studded Leather, +2 (dex from Leaps and Bounds), +1 from Flee the Scene: 20 (Flee the scene), 19 (Walk Unseen)
AB: +4 BAB, +4 dex, +2 (dex from Leaps and Bounds), +1 weapon focus, +1 size, +1 Flee the Scene: +12 or +13 ranged touch attack
DMG: 3d6 magical, 1 attack per round.

[Mitch]

Just to chime in again on the Flee the Scene issue...

I wrote earlier about what I thought the major concern with it was without really advocating a postion one way or the other, which actually makes it seem like I think its overpowered.

However, my own thinking is really more in line with Mangonushi's. Even though the ability is called flee the scene, which kind of counteridcts what it is really useful for, I don't think it's the end all be all of party buffs. For one thing, the constant need to spam it pretty much takes the warlock out the the fight as far as his own ability to deal direct damage.

Having a bard in the party with an inspiration buff and the ability to cast haste which will probably last the entire fight is, in most cases a lot more useful.

Having a cleric to give the melee types bulls's strength and any other buffs they want to throw on top of it, along the the ability to heal, is more group useful than a warlock.

Yes, warlocks can buff endlessly while other classes need rest, but unless a warlock alone can carry an exhausted party then the need to rest is the need to rest, being a battery is only so useful in a group situation.

Yes a combination of abilities lets then kite in the right environment... so can a barbarian or monk with ranged weapons, both of which also have more survivability if things go wrong and they end up in a melee situation. Kiting is a problem in any game where your opponents are mostly AI controlled, warlocks might be a little better at part of the game that is kind of broken but they're not the only ones to break it.

Yes some abilties like flee the scene are arguably more powerful than their pnp counterparts, but like all classes, warlocks are also missing other pnp abilties or have some, like hideous blow, that are completely broken and useless.

On the whole I think warlocks, the way they are implemented are fairly balanced for NWN2. In fact I think if most people, not matter what class they are, had to choose one other class to go into a fight with it would either be a sword and board fighter (or Paladin) or a cleric. Warlock would probably be pretty far down on th list.

[Joos]

You guys are a bunch of winging bitches. Just try playing a warlock for real in the engine and see how useful the ability is. Sounds nice on paper. For real, not so hot.

[ayergo]

You guys are a bunch of winging bitches. Just try playing a warlock for real in the engine and see how useful the ability is. Sounds nice on paper. For real, not so hot.

Hey thats what i'm tryin' to do here bud. : P

[Sintaqx]

You guys are a bunch of winging bitches. Just try playing a warlock for real in the engine and see how useful the ability is. Sounds nice on paper. For real, not so hot.

Been testing it out a bit in BG, and I played through the OC with a single-class 'lock. So far I've not found something I couldn't do with a level 6 ranger, bard, druid, fighter, pretty much anything, though I am very careful about the fights I pick. The only advantage a warlock seems to have over most classes at 6 is an easier time escaping, be it by running fast, or disappearing. Flee the Scene is a very nice power, but it is limited to 30 seconds, which means that most of the time your warlock is going to get off 1, maybe two blasts every 5 rounds, and the extra attack from the haste is useless to them. To fire a blast they have to be standing still during the entire casting, very detrimental to a ranged fighter's health, and though the blast has an excellent chance of hitting and does 3d6 dmg, once in a round, at that point the warlock is very vulnerable.

If you contrast it to a ranger archer, the archer can fire a shot and move every round at the cost of a -2 penalty. You can even shoot on the run with Manyshot, doing 2d8 damage at a -6 penalty to hit while moving. Each round.

Walk Unseen has been compared to Hide in Plain Sight, but there really is no comparison there. Walk Unseen takes time to cast and provokes an AOO unless successfully done defensively and forces the creatures in the area to make a listen check to locate the warlock on casting. Any creature with good wisdom and only a few ranks in listen will find the warlock often, rendering invisbility useless. HiPS on the other hand is instant, does not provoke an AOO, and uses full stealth. Very few creatures are able to locate someone with HiPS

Flee the Scene requires constant management in combat, and with the lag monster around you end up firing it off a round or two before it expires, and sometimes that's not enough. Casting this invocation every 20 or so seconds is a pain in the butt.

I've got some more running around to do on BG to test the 'lock out in rough terrain and in a dungeon solo, but so far I'd rather have a ranger or druid for these tests... so much easier. As stated, nice on paper, not nearly so in practice.

[Sintaqx]

The hardest part about a warlock is getting to level 6. Eldritch Blast is not something you are going to use much before 3rd level, so your blast shapes and effects are not going to come into play much. Leaps and Bounds, chain shirt, and a heavy crossbow are the staples of a warlock until level 3, possibly 4.

[Joos]

You guys are a bunch of winging bitches. Just try playing a warlock for real in the engine and see how useful the ability is. Sounds nice on paper. For real, not so hot.

Hey thats what i'm tryin' to do here bud. : P

I meant everyone else except you.