Grand Fromage wrote:Extra skills don't currently work, OE is fixing it in an upcoming patch. Then there will be every skill you could ever want and everyone will be gleeful.
Love 'em, but always felt that was one of the many places where D&D is broken - it's almost required to take levels in bard, ranger, or rogue just to build a well-rounded character.
Will other classes receive extra skill points to compensate for a game where skills are apparently an afterthought?
Will there be mundane items sold in shops that provide skill bonuses, ala NWN1?
There ought to be Mastercrafted versions of common tools available, that add +2 to skillchecks. That's canonical, from PNP.
Similarly, there are lots of other tools that canonically add modifiers - scales or (iirc) magnifying glasses that add a bonus to certain appraise checks, for example.
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Skill bonus items will be in, though may lag behind a bit, as we'll have to make custom itemproperties for each.
We already have a few MW tools that give circumstance bonuses (Healer's Kit which adds two to the First Aid check, for example). However, it's important to remember that most circumstance bonus are just that: they apply only in certain circumstances. So, having a set of MW scales in your inventory shouldn't boost every appraise roll, especially if Appraise continues to be used as some kind of hybrid haggling skill.
With regard to skillpoints, Able Learner is one way to more successfully build a more well-rounded character (though it means sacrificing Luck of Heroes, Spellcasting Prodigy, or other high-octane starting feats). Pumping more of your precious attribute points into INT instead of the normal combat-focused stats helps this as well. So does playing a human, for the extra bonus skillpoints at creation and on leveling thereafter.
It's also been well observered that rogues get the short end of the stick from our handling of Traps in ALFA- the expanded skillset re-enthrones them as the masters of skilled tasks (and not just of openlock/trapping/stealth/spotting). Having to decide where to invest those skillpoints helps each PC be more personalized, and allow non-minmaxed PCs to shine in at least a small subset of situations.
[edit: they'll also mean we'll finally be rid of the terrible beast that is the generic "lore" skill- maximum knowledge about everything in every field for just one class skill rank per level, blech. Finally, the well-schooled knight will be able to know nobility and heraldry, without also knowing how to ID magical items on the side, and the priest needs to decide how many of those ranks should be spent on Knowledge: Arcana versus Religion, The Planes, etc. Not to mention investing ranks in Speak Language to buy new languages...]
AcadiusLost wrote:With regard to skillpoints, Able Learner is one way to more successfully build a more well-rounded character (though it means sacrificing Luck of Heroes, Spellcasting Prodigy, or other high-octane starting feats). Pumping more of your precious attribute points into INT instead of the normal combat-focused stats helps this as well. So does playing a human, for the extra bonus skillpoints at creation and on leveling thereafter.
Heh, yup. Used all three of those tricks with my current character.
Someone asked what I considered "well-rounded." Well, you can generally divide the full list into categories:
Physical
Balance
Climb
Concentration
Escape Artist
Handle Animal
Hide
Jump
Listen
Move Silently
Ride (??)
Spot
Swim
Use Rope (??)
Rogue
Disable Device
Disguise
Forgery
Open Lock
Search
Sleight of Hand
Use Magic Device
Social
Bluff
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Perform
Sense Motive
That's a lot!
Most categories hold more skills than is reasonable for any character to fully master, but one would expect the average character to have several in one category and a few from others... as a rough example, a Fighter would find several Physical Skills useful, with a few extra from Combat or Social.
This all depends on how much use the extra skills will be seeing in ALFA.
Last edited by Kest on Mon May 26, 2008 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thats a lot *nods* What strikes me is... With so many skills to invest points in and with such a few skill points you get from each level, would it make any sense to get a PC who can climb but cant jump? I mean usually people who have a certain level of dexterity are able to perform a number of related things.
I think we definitely need more skills but they should be balanced, its not just because we can that we should implement them all. The Lore example is perfect... Lore is just broken as it is...
Last edited by Keryn on Mon May 26, 2008 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Keryn wrote:With so many skills to invest point in and with such a few skill points you get from each level, would it make any sense to get a PC who can climb but can jump? I mean usually people who have a certain level of dexterity are able to perform a number of related things.
I guess that's where we'll have to rely on skill synergies, ability mods, and item bonuses...
Also, have no idea how or why the ?? skills would be implemented.
The issue is not having enough skill points to take a lot of skills. The problem is wanting to have a lot of skills and having high scores in them.
Skill points are generally balanced and pseudo-realistic. Wizards spend all their time studying spells, clerics need to keep up with their dogma, commune, and prosyletize. Fighters are interested in honing their martial skills.
Wanting more skill points is just being greedy. Wizards and clerics cast spells, fighters wear crazy armor and smash stuff, rogues are super skilled. That's how it goes.
That was not what i meant JaydeMoon, even though I completely see where you want to get.
It is easy to find PCs who take skills that have nothing to do with them for power purposes of to fit some need the player has.
I can remember for example people taking points in Disarm Trap just for being able to open chests and loot whatever is inside, even though his PC would never learn such a thing, but the player will to get some loot without needing a rogue to help him out makes him do this.
And if is to these examples that you were referring, and I believe it is, let me agree with you.
But there are several examples where the classes as they are have a hard time trying to actually get the skills they should, over the top of my head I can remember the Ranger but there are others.
I haven't tested this, so I can't comment further but I guess my concern is valid, with a wider span of skills, your PC, to fit your conception, will have to take and spend skill points in a much wider variety, which means he will have much less skill points in each skill.
Also that he is worse doing things that maybe he should be, but to match the RP conception the player had to drop the points in several skills rather then focus in those who make sense and would make him stand out in that type of situation. That is what i meant.
NWN2 gives you the proper number of skill points, you aren't going to get any extra. You will just have to think about what you put them in, just like in PnP.
Right. PnP has had just as many (in fact MORE) skills for the PCs to choose from and not any more skill points to apply to them.
There is just no reason to to deviate from source on this issue.
Time spent studying a new language is time not spent honing your stealth skills. Time spent studying geography is time not spent studying Arcana.
Skill points represent how much time a PC has outside of the other things they get for their class to learn and improve on their skills. Rogues have the most time to work on skills, Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards have the least.
As for the 'skills they actually should' have, whether a certain class 'should' have a particular skill is your opinion. We can all agree that there are skills that certain classes generally have (like hide, move silent, open locks, disable traps for rogues), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the character 'should' have them. Even taking into account the mass amount of skills points for rogues, they simply don't have enough to max out every Class Skill.
Like many things, it's part of what goes towards making your character your character. If everyone had the skill points they needed to get and be good at 'all of the skills they should', then everyone would be nearly the same and we wouldn't have a spread of specialties, such as the rogue who is actually a thief with maxed thieving skills vs a rogue who is charming and lives by his wits, with maxed diplomacy skills.
There's give and take, and you may disagree with that, but I can tell you this is an issue that isn't going to actually go anywhere and skill points will not be increased for certain or all classes.
The biggest argument against is simply source. Skills are alloted by character class as the Core Rulebooks. In ALFA, that's gonna be a nearly impossible mountain to climb.
Also, keep in mind that just cause you don't have ranks in a skill, unless they are 'Trained Only' skills, you can still perform them!
Smart characters just retain more about history and geography and lore than dumB characters. Strong characters are naturally better swimmers than weak ones. Wise characters are more perceptive, etc.
