Why the static quest XP reduction?

[Magonushi]

FYI I reached level 2 with about 2-3 days of playing, not even solid. This came from the rivermoot statics and a fortunate run of DM attention. So quick leveling early on in ALFA is possible.

However I have to agree that generally ALFA is still very stingy and paranoid about rewarding quality RP with high levels of both XP and loot. As you noted Cynon this can cause players to error on the side of caution rather than being bold and risking the toon for the sake of entertainment and storytelling, especially since the actual rewards from most high risk actives in ALFA almost never justify their risk.

Then again ALFA isn't trying to be a game about heroes who constantly act bold. More realistically the game is about characters, who on occasion pick up pointed sticks and follow a quest to completion before returning to a drunken stupor in some anonymous pub. Occasionally these low lives choose to beat one another with their sticks, but other than that anyone traveling off the beaten path is gonna get killed or at the very least accused of PGing, farming, or otherwise manipulating the cosmos in some manner to benefit themselves.

[HATEFACE]

That settles it. Mages are automatic powergamers.

[Mulu]

Oh just go stand somewhere safe and spend the time chatting in IRC like everybody else. Your PC can advance through RP increment with zero risk of death.

If D&D is like a movie then ALFA is that same movie being shown one frame at a time. What my NWC players get in two hours of my campaign sessions would be probably be equivalent to a week of playing daily on an ALFA server compressed, and they rarely tread over the same dirt twice. But this is nothing new. You don't play ALFA for the content, any decent SP mod has more content than all ALFA servers put together. You don't play it for the DM's, or you'll be twiddling your thumbs 99% of the time, or only logging in for a weekly campaign session. You play it to rp with other players, whether in a tavern or in the mountains running from a CR 12 giant skeleton (seriously now....), or as is typical a little of both. You watch your PC's friends die, your PC dies, you create new PC's with new stories, you repeat the tepid static content and pretend it's new, and throughout you enjoy playing with some of the better roleplayers in what is left of the NWN and NWN2 community. Because really the *only* thing ALFA has to offer is a sandbox with like-minded players and a couple of dirty old pails (and not much sand). It's up to you to make a castle with that, with or without DM's.

One thing I've noticed, and I mentioned it before, is that the NWN2 interface is harder than it was in NWN1 in combat. This means combat is harder for those who lack the twitch skills. RP'ers are notorious for lacking twitch skills, especially us middle-aged RP'ers, yet the servers are designed for PG'ing Super Mario masters with many dangerous encounters that require interface skills to win. A bit of a split personality there, claim it's all about the roleplay but require PGing skills to survive. My first PC died with five cure light potions quick-slotted individually (they didn't stack), but I couldn't deselect an orc, select myself and then select any of the potions in time to live. That same encounter in NWN1 would have come out differently. I'm sure I'm not alone, given the number of dead PC's I've encountered in game. That should be accounted for in the overall server design, in particular the ability to level out of the lowest levels quickly.

Anyway what this thread really should have been is a series of suggestions rather than a bitch session.

Suggestion 1: Make it much easier to get to third level, perhaps even fourth level. You can hit the brakes after that. This of course means raising the static XP substantially, but only making the statics available to PC's under level 4.

Suggestion 2: Slow down the bleed script so folk don't die so often in party adventuring (I swear it was recently sped up) and make self-recovery more likely at low levels. The HABD bleed script I use in my mods is adjustable by level. I set it so that you bleed slower at lower levels and faster at higher levels, and you have a better chance of stabilization and recovery at lower levels and less at higher levels. It allows those weakling PC's to grow into something survivable and interesting, rather than stick players in a low level hamburger grinder where their PC's never really have a chance to flower.

Suggestion 3: Allow scrolls of raise dead to exist and be useable on PC's within a reasonable amount of time. This is a staple feature in NWC campaigns, mine included, and allows the story to progress, though you take an xp hit and can still die permanently of course. I seem to recall NWN1 was notorious for favoritism in tech rezzes. Better to just make the possibility of being raised available to all players than only a select few.

Suggestion 4: Remember we're here to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Benches & Barmaids.

[HATEFACE]

Anyway what this thread really should have been is a series of suggestions rather than a b*tch session.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to be counter-productive.

Suggestion 1: Make it much easier to get to third level, perhaps even fourth level. You can hit the brakes after that. This of course means raising the static XP substantially, but only making the statics available to PC's under level 4.

Why should it be made any easier at levels 1-5? The "brakes" are already designed in the game through progressively higher xp requirement for attaining levels which should logically require more difficult & rewarding quests. The variability in the degree of difficulty often comes from players who already know FR and are able to judge and act accordingly even in static quests. I've experienced this myself where a character's personality suddenly switches on a dime to avoid doing a knowingly dangerous quest. (Little did I know, I would soon be f*cking slaughtered.)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051105a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051014a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060901a
Though these are table top examples, I feel that ALFA can still apply them in some meaningful way.

The only problems I see isn't about the amount of xp being garnered but by the risk vs reward. Granted ALFA shouldn't give away +2 swords of monkeyfuck to everyone but there should be at least some sort of reward amount gained from, oh say, wiping out an entire gnoll cave base and almost dying in the process. . . twice.

Suggestion 2: Slow down the bleed script so folk don't die so often in party adventuring (I swear it was recently sped up) and make self-recovery more likely at low levels. The HABD bleed script I use in my mods is adjustable by level. I set it so that you bleed slower at lower levels and faster at higher levels, and you have a better chance of stabilization and recovery at lower levels and less at higher levels. It allows those weakling PC's to grow into something survivable and interesting, rather than stick players in a low level hamburger grinder where their PC's never really have a chance to flower.

ALFA is designed to be difficult. Yes, try not to appear astonished. However, I don't think bleeding shouldn't be adjustable by level. - I agree it should be slower though. Also, I love hamburger.

Suggestion 3: Allow scrolls of raise dead to exist and be useable on PC's within a reasonable amount of time. This is a staple feature in NWC campaigns, mine included, and allows the story to progress, though you take an xp hit and can still die permanently of course. I seem to recall NWN1 was notorious for favoritism in tech rezzes. Better to just make the possibility of being raised available to all players than only a select few.

That would be a fucking god-send! - I just hope they're not given out like candy.

Suggestion 4: Remember we're here to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Benches & Barmaids.

lol wut?

One thing I've noticed, and I mentioned it before, is that the NWN2 interface is harder than it was in NWN1 in combat. This means combat is harder for those who lack the twitch skills. RP'ers are notorious for lacking twitch skills, especially us middle-aged RP'ers, yet the servers are designed for PG'ing Super Mario masters with many dangerous encounters that require interface skills to win. A bit of a split personality there, claim it's all about the roleplay but require PGing skills to survive. My first PC died with five cure light potions quick-slotted individually (they didn't stack), but I couldn't deselect an orc, select myself and then select any of the potions in time to live. That same encounter in NWN1 would have come out differently. I'm sure I'm not alone, given the number of dead PC's I've encountered in game. That should be accounted for in the overall server design, in particular the ability to level out of the lowest levels quickly.

Yeah. . . My initial response to NWN2 interface is, its just baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, so bad. - I don't know if It requires time to adjust to or if its genuinely shit. ALFA should look into Gooees, baby, gooees.

[Mulu]

Why should it be made any easier at levels 1-5?

Because you have few hit points at levels 1-3. Very few.

The only problems I see isn't about the amount of xp being garnered but by the risk vs reward.

It's the same problem, xp is a reward too.

ALFA is designed to be difficult.

Why? How does that make RP better?

[dergon darkhelm]

ALFA is designed to be difficult.

Why? How does that make RP better?

Because difficulty tends to make people less cavalier about the decisions they make with their PC. Difficulty introduces fear, doubt, nuance, and even the sorrow of death. Diificulty makes planning and tactics necessary.

The difficulty is what hooked me as a player in ALFA and it is why I will never be able to play on a non-permatdeath server.

ALFA is designed to be difficult and is the better for it.

[witch]

statics should be there to have players move from 1 to 3th level with some risk and some gain, aimed at doing some alone and some with 2-3 other first levels. Some current statics i wont do without a level 3 around for its 1 hit one kill with some of them.. Sorry but i like my toon and the time i spend in its background i rather see brought to fruiton than see it washed away in a single unlucky hit.

in the current situation and i think thats a key issue in it we see a growing gap between new starting players (who have to do the statics that bring less xp then the early starts) ,players who dont fall in the dm-ed groups and on the other side players that have done the early statics for good rewards and also are in the dm-ed groups.

Having statics someone can do to get to level 3 relatively easy say in a week or 2 would be great, take in account some 100's of rp xp for being on and at level 3 you can look around the server a bit with some others even when you do not get dm-ed.

With the current situation the gap between dm-ed and not dm-ed gets bigger daily. Simple comparison

100xp dm given for 2 RL hours of playing means someone not being dm-ed needs to spend 50 ingame hours (aka around 10 RL hours).

Especially at the low levels this is imo an issue. for some take ages getting to level 2 and thus frustration starts, others move more quickly due to early statics and dm time (and im not talking about those being on 24/7 but your average player) and pass the level 3 bar where you have a chance to survive more often..and can do stuff.. the rest gets to eat from their nose hopign to make it to level 2 and maybe 2

Since we cant have 24/7 dm coverage, statics that help you get from 1 to 3 even without a dm on is a must, with the same risk and reward you would get from having a dm play with you... it balances the playerfield



Helios your argument for alfa needing to be diffcult can be turned around as well. We arent playing taverns and wenches but D&D so we want players to be a bit heroic and not sit at the bar and drink 10rl hours just to be able to make itto level 1. Personally i aint risking my lvl 1 toon vs 2 kobolds who give me 2xp no coin and a 50% chance of dying if they get a hit in.. not very ic to do.. same with real life.. you dont go working in a nuclearplant for a dime a day with the risks involved..

Alfa is about good RP and the difficulty to survive has nothing to do with it.

And yes im taking ages to level (20+ play hours) done all statics (marshall) i can manage to survive and still needing 400xp. Likely doing something wrong since i didnt manage to level in 2-3 days
ohh yes Frustration all the way and i can tell you helios it aint making my RP any better

[Swift]

There must be some risk. As much as i have campaigned for statics with very low risk (mainly since we have virtually none that can be done without hitting combat of some sort*) there needs to be some risk and some incentive to get even just one other person to help. Two people has RP possibilities, one person does not.

However, the risk must match the reward, and i would hazard a guess that past the first couple of RM statics, the rewards simply aren't matching the risk level 1's are putting to them, and simply saying 'get a group' is short sighted, as that becomes harder and harder as people move away (particularly once another server comes online and some players move there).

I guess what really needs to be decided is why we have statics in the first place. If it is to give people something to do when a DM is not around, then they achieve their goal. If they are (as originally stated) to move people quickly to level 2-3, then they fail in their current incarnation. This means Admin, Standards and DM teams need to get together and decide how they can facilitate quick early leveling (for those that choose it) with balanced rewards without requiring DM teams to script dozens and dozens of statics to do it. DM teams have enough on their plate without having to script 3 dozen fed ex quests because Standards/DMA demand they be low reward to fit with some arbitrary reward system.

I will not lay blame for this anywhere. A surprising amount of people are involved ensuring a static sticks to standards, so everyone behind the scenes plays a part, but as of now, the rivermoot statics do not achieve their original goal, and players that catch very little to no DMing are getting the shaft.

A team effort is needed to fix this. The TSM DM team can't go out on their own, otherwise they will get raked over the coals again.


* Sure, there are the delivery quests now, but they are (as described, i am not certain whether the restriction applies in game) for argent dawn militia members. To become a member, you have to go through the combat laden statics from the marshall to get the badge (unless a DM gives it to you, which is no help to those that find it hard to catch a DM). Fighting to become a pacifist is a very interesting concept.

[Rick7475]

* Sure, there are the delivery quests now, but they are (as described, i am not certain whether the restriction applies in game) for argent dawn militia members. To become a member, you have to go through the combat laden statics from the marshall to get the badge (unless a DM gives it to you, which is no help to those that find it hard to catch a DM). Fighting to become a pacifist is a very interesting concept.

Currently there are no restrictions on the three delivery quests or the two patrol quests.

[Cynon]

Personally at this moment in time I am not possessing of a 3 year old character that has taken huge amounts of time and dedication to build into a story that I need to keep on track.

I am also this time around not under the delusion that ALFA is the only Player World out there worth playing on and that it's the only place where people RP and don't just go round OOC chatting and hack n' slash everything.

For this reason, I am not personally worried about ALFA and it's Administrative BS this time around but the thread asks, why has the static quests been nerfed?

Why have they been nerfed?

It's nothing to do with balance or fun, it's a simple case of players were playing and people had no problem with any of it and the DM's and builders who have been here forever and know the standards well have set it at a balanced and reasonable level and someone in Admin has decided to reduce it.

It would have been reduced if it was originally giving half of what it was or double. It makes no difference.

The ALFA trend is to reduce and nerf and always keep squeezing things down.

I'm not gonna criticise Rusty for doing what he has done. If it wasn't him it would have been someone else.

My only opinion is that I'm gonna try ALFA out again. I'm going to play a straight forward PC, I'll find something to do when I log on whether it's to find some content to play or wander aimlessly until I bump into something or someone, but I'm not going to sit and be bored Roleplaying with myself for hours.

The moment I have OOC harrassment for playing the game or someone tries to nerf my PC I'll leave and play somewhere with higher standards and greater maturity.

The sad thing is I actually honestly believe this is going to happen within the next few months.

What I really hope is that the people who screwed it all up in NWN1 and turned dozens of bustling servers into empty ghost towns in the space of perhaps a couple of months, will this time around realise why all those people left ALFA and went elsewhere. I also hope they realise that they drove all the best RPers away.

RPers want to have a story and to RP. You can't do that in an empty server where every one hates each other.

Powergamers are the ones that were desperate to remain and preserve all they had worked for to make their characters high level and hold onto thier good loot. An RPer wouldn't care about that stuff once the immersion and RP was lost, they just go looking elsewhere.

Powergamers are also the only ones who care about how much wealth and levels other people have. Why would someone RP focussed even think of implementing wealth restrictions and level validations or capping.

My suggestion.

Put the rewards for the statics right back to however they originally were when the servers went live. No one is going to loose face, no-one is going to criticise. It's clear it has caused frustration and resentment.

Such action could only be popular.

More suggestions.

Don't do it again and perhaps just sit back and watch how everything works nicely when people play within a stable medium where the rules were set at the start and will never change.

[HATEFACE]

In the current situation and i think thats a key issue in it we see a growing gap between new starting players (who have to do the statics that bring less xp then the early starts) ,players who dont fall in the dm-ed groups and on the other side players that have done the early statics for good rewards and also are in the dm-ed groups.

Beta testing! ALFA' statics needed beta testing, or at least alpha testing of ALFA! So should the playing field be equalized in some way? Its a tough issue, so I hope you understand my earnestness in it.

Having statics someone can do to get to level 3 relatively easy say in a week or 2 would be great, take in account some 100's of rp xp for being on and at level 3 you can look around the server a bit with some others even when you do not get dm-ed.

Level three in a week? No. . . No no. Level three in three weeks? Yes! Yes!
One level a week, that's pretty friggin quick, in my opinion don't you think? You know, I was level one and did that? - Almost died, ahem, twice. Not even Dmed either. Yeah, I'm upset about not being rewarded for the effort taken. The balance in monster locations and difficult needs to be looked at instead of bringing back the statics. Monster locations have a huge impact on survivability. I recall one story that spiderjones mentioned where he was wandering into a cave and encountered a random rust monster at the entrance outta no wheres... Yeah, ALFA makes a lot of (non)sense sometimes.

Helios your argument for alfa needing to be diffcult can be turned around as well. We arent playing taverns and wenches but D&D so we want players to be a bit heroic and not sit at the bar and drink 10rl hours just to be able to make itto level 1. Personally i aint risking my lvl 1 toon vs 2 kobolds who give me 2xp no coin and a 50% chance of dying if they get a hit in.. not very ic to do.. same with real life.. you dont go working in a nuclearplant for a dime a day with the risks involved..

Alfa is about good RP and the difficulty to survive has nothing to do with it.

You make it sound like I want to tavern camp and not get l00t for wiping out an entire gnoll cave system, sir. Thus this warrents and deserves a smart-ass response. Sorry.

lol wut? My argument is for ALFA needing to be difficult? ALFA is difficult which is part of its appeal, for me, at least. In a way you're arguing what I'm arguing. We need to figure out reward vs risk. XP is part of the reward that is gathered by players as their characters solve plots and foil teh bad guy/good guy. The l00t dished out is far more stingy than the xp. Since the auto-xp system you get xp just for sitting on your ass and talking. Thus, in its own way, enabling the whole "taverns and wenches philosophy." Sir, I've seen better roleplaying on servers much much easier than ALFA with items handed to them w/ability to ressurect. Its a laughable idealogy that ALFA provides "TEH BEST!" of it. If ALFA was solely about RP and difficulty to survive had nothing to do with it. . . it. . . oh well, this doesn't really need a well thought out response.

And yes im taking ages to level (20+ play hours) done all statics (marshall) i can manage to survive and still needing 400xp. Likely doing something wrong since i didnt manage to level in 2-3 days
ohh yes Frustration all the way and i can tell you helios it aint making my RP any better

I'm taking ages to level also. Probably due to the fact I don't play as much as other people, that's okay. I can understand the frusterations that arise if you do play and get nothing though and that needs to change. It may be due to a combination issues and they all need to be addressed. Why do you think it took you longer to level than others? Is it possible to answer the question without saying "I NEEDED A MOAR XPS IN ME STASTICS!!!!"? I am the illegal mexican of ALFA's nerfed statics and constant downplay of rewards. This is what I am used too. El jefe dice que puedo almorzar un por día. ¿Usted quiere la estática con la hamburguesa? Si, I take brake now?

Why should it be made any easier at levels 1-5?

Because you have few hit points at levels 1-3. Very few.

The only problems I see isn't about the amount of xp being garnered but by the risk vs reward.

It's the same problem, xp is a reward too.

ALFA is designed to be difficult.

Why? How does that make RP better?

I didn't know we had fewer hit points. I thought that was an inherent design flaw of NWN2 engine. Encounters for lowbies should be set appropriately imho while maintaining some degree of excitement. Extra care should be given in some instances - As I pointed out through an example in TPI. I'm sorry, but DM attention to cradle the lowbies in their arms cannot be done properly through scripting in statics.

XP is a "technically" a reward. Very technically. I'll have to edit this post and explain in further detail. How and why there is a difference between XP and physical rewards such as gold and items.

See the shit awful response to witch above. Sorry witch.

[Cynon]

Whatever Helios is on, I want some.

[HATEFACE]

Whatever Helios is on, I want some.

Life isn't for you, my man. Become an hero soon.

Now, let's review my purposal for starting everyone at level 3. . .

[Burt]

The DMs have made their stance on this issue clear. Lock plz.

[HATEFACE]

The DMs have made their stance on this issue clear. Lock plz.

Oh good. Locking makes the problems go away.