Traps

[Mulu]

The sillyest part of traps is often the fact that they are being used to protect something that is worth less than the trap...

Now *that* I will agree with! Often the trap *is* the treasure, to a skilled rogue anyway.

[bartleby]

If you wanted to combat dumb AI not going around a trap make it so that anything or one that enters the trap has at very least a chance to set it off. Would help to keep people think more carefully about where they would put them and why.

[JaydeMoon]

Let's get a handle on what an NWN trap kit is. It's not the raw materials for a trap the the thief puts together with alchemy and mechanical know how. It's a thing that someone else already crafted and all you have to do is deploy it.

Soldiers don't fashion a claymore mine by gathering the shrapnel; soldering the wires; combining the plasticize, binder, explosive, and other material for the C-4; packing it into a convex plastic case; and writing "Front Toward Enemy" on it. Someone else makes it and the soldier simply deploys it by means that are learned in a half-hour block of instruction at basic training. Don't see why this is such an absurd concept for DnD.

Gnomes pack gunpowder and rocks into a sealed can with a flint and steel mechanism within. You attach a string to the mechanism that, when yanked, pulls the flint along the steel and ignites the gunpowder. Set the string as a tripwire.

So yeah, CRAFTING the trap requires knowledge and skill. But what's so hard about buying the ready made can, tying the string to it, hiding the can in some bushes and running the string across the path?

Now, this is just exposition, not saying whether we should include traps or not include traps or what have you.

But trap deployment is not difficult and the possibilities for traps can indeed be as spectacular as a.deadly fire trap. Most alchemical traps would be rather expensive, though.

Real life trap kits:

[Mayhem]

In which case you appear to be arguing for ALL pcs to have unskilled use of trap kits.

Albeit heavy ones.

[Mulu]

By definition, booby traps are disguised or well-hidden, victim-activated devices. The initiating object is going to be fairly obvious, as it is the object that the enemy hopes a soldier will interfere with in order to set off the trap. Booby traps rely on an unwary or distracted soldier touching or pulling a physical object (such as a war souvenir) or provide a too-easy access or simple solution to a problem (such as leaving only one door open in an otherwise secure building).

In an operational environment where booby traps have been used, soldiers must be trained to constantly question why things are positioned where they are or why the enemy might have left obvious routes open. The enemy will watch reactions and procedures executed when moving through an area. They will be looking for natural behavior and weaknesses in soldiers' drills. For example, in Vietnam, the Vietcong (VC) noticed soldiers liked to kick empty soda cans that were lying on the ground. It was not long before the US troops found that the VC were leaving explosive devices in empty cans lying alongside regular patrol routes. The devices were activated when the cans were kicked.

Many of the booby trap indicators mirror those of mines. These include areas where the locals do not enter, such as abandoned buildings and attractive items that are usually left alone.

Electrical wires, batteries, booby traps, and store items (clothes pegs, mouse traps, steel tubes, and springs).
Isolated boxes and containers along routes.
Abandoned vehicles, military equipment, weapons, uniforms, and papers.
Trip wires, string, and cables.
Disturbed soil and sand.
Dust.
Footprint trails that stop suddenly.

Buildings are excellent sites for booby trap warfare. If unsecured buildings have to be entered and occupied, assume that they are booby-trapped. Likely targets are restrictive areas like doorways, windows, and areas of approach that are typically used. These are likely targets because people will have to move through them. These areas are likely to be booby-trapped. Teams must develop alternate ways of entering the building where the enemy is unlikely to have set traps. Once inside, hallways, interior doorways, staircases, and floors provide restricted access and are again prime sites. Any remaining furniture or household objects will have to be cleared prior to use.

The search and clearance of buildings, caves, abandoned vehicles, or any suspect area is a specialized skill that requires expert knowledge of booby trap types and functions. The clearance procedures are also highly complex, requiring skilled soldiers and specialized equipment and training. The task of booby trap clearance and disposal is an explosive ordnance disposal (EOD) mission. If booby traps are located, EOD personnel should be tasked for clearance and disposal support.

In all cases, the minimum number of soldiers with the largest tactically acceptable spacing should be engaged in clearance operations to reduce collateral casualties. If operations require troops to enter suspect buildings without EOD support, the guidelines outlined below should be adopted.

[JaydeMoon]

In which case you appear to be arguing for ALL pcs to have unskilled use of trap kits.

Albeit heavy ones.

As I said, I'm not arguing for one thing or another. Just saying that 'trap kits' in the form of 'pre-manufactured', self deployable booby traps are within the realm of possibility.

[Nalo Jade]

Soldiers don't fashion a claymore mine by gathering the shrapnel; soldering the wires; combining the plasticize, binder, explosive, and other material for the C-4; packing it into a convex plastic case; and writing "Front Toward Enemy" on it. Someone else makes it and the soldier simply deploys it by means that are learned in a half-hour block of instruction at basic training. Don't see why this is such an absurd concept for DnD.

As a former Marine anti-armor assaultmen we were trained in the use of field expedient explosive devices. We did actually make Claymore mines, out of soap dishes and we used spent casings from our weapons as the shrapnel. The IED, you here about are very similiar.

One device we called "the Frankenstein" consisted of a compact roll of barbed wire with some explosives hidden in the middle of the roll.

I am TOTALLY not getting involved in this except to say, I am a PnP player, so IMO anything is "possible" when a DM is present. Anything that is created as a game system or hak... or script needs to be worth the work spent making it...

If it doesn't jive with PnP then its not for ALFA? isn't that like a pillar or something?

Thunderstone's, and Tanglefoot bags are PnP examples of ready made "trap" devices, I think its reasonable for anyone to device a trigger for those items that delays its deployment...and with more skills in "Hide" they could ensure it isn't seen....

Set up trap kits to deploy, with a chance of being avoided ... Reflex save VS Hide ability, and DRASTICALLY reduce the damage... it is not possible for a non-engineer to create a 20d6 Electrical trap any where they want...in less time than it takes for a halfling to shave his feet.

Okay I guess I got "sucked in"

I am asta-la-taco...

[Brokenbone]

Landmines are definitely within the realm of possibility, i.e., they exist in RL. We have the technology for highly efficient, compact explosives, etc.

Generic D&D (not D20 Modern), you get alchemy, and those cautions in sourcebooks like the A&E Guide to not let alchemy beat out magic.

Faerun in particular though, you get alchemy + a couple of decades of smokepowder, i.e., the difference between whatever our starting year is, and whenever poor Gond washed up on the shores of Lantan and started teaching gnomes new tricks.

I guess if ALFA wants to introduce barrels of smokepowder, arquebusiers, etc. all kinds of other firearms, that's a whole different topic. If instead smokepowder is examined from a perspective of "traps only, no one else can have it" business, I guess that covers a little bit about fire traps, but still not the damage, weight, whatever. Come to think, Mulu's illustrations above make me think a variable I hadn't listed previously was AoE of the killzone. Stepping on something the size of a burger is different than entering a 10x10 zone of doom.

***

Anyhow, back to the A&E Guide for a second, I actually found a couple of traps! Was trying to figure out what the heck the weight of a man trap ought to be, vs. say, a RL 30lb-50lb bear trap, this is the closest I came up with:

(1) Fowler's Snare - 20gp - 5lb.
- This is a specially designed snare used for capturing birds and other small flying game. It grants a +1 circumstance bonus on Wilderness Lore checks when attempting to trap these sorts of creatures. (Brokenbone's note: I guess read 3.0 "Wilderness Lore" as 3.5 "Survival", or 3.5 "Knowledge (Nature)")

I guess a 5lb snare kit can help you catch pheasants, ducks and whatnot... ie, fowl. D&D terminology, those'd be "Size Tiny" creatures. Maybe just like when you resize weapons (also covered in A&E Guide), rule of thumb ought to be +50% weight per size. That could mean:
5lb to affect tiny, 7.5lb to affect small, 11.25lb to affect medium, 16.875lb to affect large targets (ie, some stakes and some wire/twine inconvenience a chicken, but meaningless to a minotaur... upgrade to steel cable, chain, rawhide, and other durable stuff).

(2) Barbed Wire (50ft) - 75gp - 50lb.
- This is a roll of barbed steel wire designed to keep things in or out. A creature trying to cross barbed wire must make a successful reflex save (DC10) or take 1d3 damage or be tripped. A pair of thick gloves is necessary to set up barbed wire. A handler who does not have gloves needs to succeed on a Dex check (DC5) each round or take 1d2 points of damage. Building a barbed wire obstacle tales 1d4+6 hours, including anchor posts.

Anyhow, the barbed wire description speaks for itself, it's sure not a hidden trap, but it'll take you about 8 hours to deploy, and stands a decent chance of doing 1d3 damage and a trip, to anyone who crosses it without, you know, getting rid of it (such as through magic, or appropriate tools like bolt cutters, also listed in A&E). I do not think a rogue would necessarily get a "Disable Device" roll against this kind of thing, though they, or really anyone with gloves, tools, and a little dexterity, could probably disassemble a barrier in a few hours (or less with help).

Smart money's on throwing caltrops and spending the other 7 hours and 59 minutes falling back, hah.

[Mulu]

Another thing to consider which was assumed but not implicitly stated before, ALFA's version of Faerun has had rogues deploying trap kits for, well decades of in game time. To have them suddenly go "POOF" just because we are migrating to a new platform is immersion breaking, especially given that they do come with the game so this isn't Obsidian's fault. Obviously changing platforms and rule version numbers is causing plenty of changes from ALFA canon in NWN1, but it seems like minimizing the number of changes should be a good thing.

Yet another thing to consider is recruitment/retention. Every change made to the game will frustrate the expectations of some given number of players, as well as add to the total amount of new information a player needs to learn to play here effectively. The changes themselves may seem minor, but as this example proves taking away traps from rogues is not sitting well with folk who want to play rogues, and I think that's an extremely valid frustration. We may even lose players over it. Another way to lose new players in particular is just the sheer volume of changes being made. Make the learning curve too steep and plenty of folk will say "screw it" and play elsewhere. Back in the day ALFA could afford to burn through 90% of its playerbase and still remain somewhat viable, but in the here and now all decisions and especially changes to the game should always keep one eye on recruitment/retention issues and how they will be effected.

Realize too that my background is heavy PnP, and I'm not playing a rogue, but I think trapkits belong in the game after their acceptance for many years in ALFA NWN1. Given that they have a decent chance to blow up in your face and are already ridiculously expensive (my NWN1 rogues made quite a killing selling retrieved trap kits on various servers), the only thing I would change to them would be to add weight, which was unrealistic originally.

[JaydeMoon]

I don't think anyone is taking them out of NWN1.

NWN2 is different and a chance to get a fresh start, in many ways, some that you feel are good and some that you won't care for.

[Mulu]

Again, making changes just because you *can* seems like a poor rationale, and PnP fidelity isn't much better.

[Mulu]

Didn't take me too long to find this. Does anyone have the Complete Scoundrel? Because it appears to include a "Fast Trapper" feat.



Unofficial D&D feats would include:

Clever Designer QR 48 DEX 15+
Trapmaster
Supposedly limited to the Rogue class.
This feat may be taken more than once.
When you make a trap, you can increase either the search DC or the
disable DC by 2.

Fiendish Designer QR 50 DEX 15+
Trapmaster
Clever Designer
Supposedly limited to the Rogue class.
Traps you build (other than pit traps) deal +2 damage per die. Also
see trap rules on QR 81.

Speedy Trapper QR 51 DEX 15+
Trapmaster
Clever Designer
Supposedly limited to the Rogue class.
You take only half the normal time to make a trap. Also see the trap
rules on QR 81.

Trapmaster QR 52 DEX 15+ Supposedly limited to the Rogue class.
+2 on Craft(Trapmaking). +2 on Disable Device.

Craft Magic Trap T&T 34 Spellcaster (10+)
Craft(Trap) skill 1+
You can create a trap imbued with any spell-like effect you have
access to. See T&T 35 for details.

Craft Matrix QR 49 Use Magic Device skill 1+ Supposedly limited to the Rogue class
This is not actually an Item Creation feat.
You may create a spell matrix (see QR 86) without having the
ability to cast spells or the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

T&T = Traps & Treachery (Fantasy Flight Games)
QR = The Quintessential Rogue (Mongoose)

[Munmun]

The Combat Trapsmith, awesome class.

They get an ability called Combat Trapping that lets them craft and lay some pretty cool traps:

Befuddler: -2 penalty on Concentration, Int, Wis and Cha based checks.
Enfeebler: Fatigues target.
Entangler: Entangles target.
Equalizer: Target falls prone.
Flashbang: Blindness and deafness.
Footspiker: Halves target's speed.
Glitterburst: Makes invisible targets visible.
Scorcher: 2d6 fire damage.
Scorcher, Great: 5d6 fire damage in a large area.
Sleeper: Target falls asleep.
Spiderweb: As the Web spell.
Stinkburst: As the Stinking Cloud spell.

These special traps last one hour or until triggered, whichever comes first. Laying them is a full round action and a craft check. They do not use premade traps but actually cobble them together using a special trapsmith kit (costing 100gp) with enough components for 10 traps. Traps made this way cannot be recovered or cannibalized for raw parts.

At 4th level they can make these traps without the special kit but it adds 5 to the DC of the craft check. At 5th level setting a trap is a standard action.

The book also suggests that the list of traps can be expanded easily using the trap making guide in the DMG. Virtually any low level offensive spell can be used as a trap but the DM may wish to require levels in an arcane casting class for some (hypnotism, daze monster, shatter, etc).

There is much more of course but this is the gist.

[danielmn]

Nice info guys...I like the specialist trapper idea...as well as the pic.

[Mulu]

Yeah, I should have known better than to believe the peeps saying portable traps weren't in PnP. If anything, they are even better represented there. Guess that kills the PnP argument against.

Now, let's get traps put back in the game where they belong please.

Makes me want to look over all the other changes made to the game.... Seems like ALFA NWN2 became a Rusty and Veilan "homerules" campaign somewhere along the line.