Tieflings Number 2

[Mulu]

So, basically you want to put the burden of proof on the opponents of plane-touched? Have THEM explain themselves and justify their line of thinking?

Jayde, you're becoming a troll, but I'll answer this part. In my campaigns, there are no plane-touched PC's allowed. There are no UD race PC's allowed. No half-orcs either. In fact, no evil PC's are allowed. In our own game we get to make as many restrictions as we want.

In ALFA, where visions conflict, we are supposed to defer to canon. The canon rules are that plane-touched PC's are allowed, ergo the *default* position should be inclusion. Now, ALFA does deviate from canon, but when it does it should have good reasons to, beyond just a clique that doesn't like canon.

[Souvarine]

So, basically you want to put the burden of proof on the opponents of plane-touched? Have THEM explain themselves and justify their line of thinking?

I've been trying hard to find it, and can be fairly stubborn when i get something into my mind. But i can't; failure, syntax error, whatever i just can't find it. That's not because i am biased in my search, i really would like to address it precisely with a methodical solution, but it's because i lack the knowledge of where to look, the angle, to see where it is.

Every case of dm work or script i am able to find is not specific to planetouched. This is why imput is needed from the dms and builders, imho, in order to be as precise as "manhours" and "scripts offered". And in fact, we need a reason to make those planetouched scripts; canon sources must support the specific effect concerning planetouched, we're in alfa here. We want the FRs to be realistic.

How many manhours are needed to make a bridge if you cannot see the river to be crossed?

If i was alone, isolated with the eye problems on this issue, then i'd say i am short-sighted and totally biased. But as mulu said, we're pretty much all reading it in the same direction here.

[JaydeMoon]

Well, make sure you only quote the piece you need to make your point and leave out the part that doesn't vibe with what you're trying to say:

That's all well and good I suppose, but, unfortunately, they already won and the current rule concerning the inclusion of plane-touched suits them fine: No plane-touched in ALFA.

Read: I agree, if it worked that way, it would be nice. Except ALFA is dumB that way and the clique that doesn't like canon has won, so now you have to actually deal with their petty concerns.

Man, I keep saying, again and again, that in principle, I agree with you guys.

Unfortunately, we see again and again, that principle often doesn't work in ALFA and ESPECIALLY ALFA politics and bureaucracy. Jump through hoops if you want something and even then it's at the whim of one or two people who just can't be convinced to see it your way. I would hope you got that by now.

BUT now there is a hard rule that covers such things! And Wynna has given you an opening!

Now, instead of it being decided by one person, or group in ALFA (the DMs, in this last case), you can:

1. Submit a proposal that seriously answers the concerns without simply resorting to calling them invalid.

2. Wynna accepts proposal and opens up the debate for a week or two in the Admin forums.

3. Wynna determines the Admin domains it falls under.

4. Of the Admin who's domains it might fall under, only one has evidenced any strong opposition to plane-touched. I KNOW one is strongly in FAVOR of plane-touched, and at least one other (that I think would be involved) is more for plane-touched than not.

5. Likely between three admin, but if it's only between two (we know who they will be), horns will be locked and vote will go to entire Admin body.

6. Pertinant admin will vote.

7. Betcha' plane-touched get voted in.

See?

My plan is awesome and will probably work. Someone (not me, because I can't be bothered to) just has to do step #1. The rest will all fall into place.

OR... keep posting in this thread and we'll keep trucking, sans plane-touched PCs in ALFA servers.

[Edit] The above referenced Mulu's post, not Souvarine's

[psycho_leo]

It's quite obvious, at least to me, that posting here and stating over and over the reasons why PT should be included won't really change anything, unless admin corps change again and the new guys in charge decide spin things around once again.

So addressing the concerns of the DMs and builders that are against teh inclusion seems like the only course of action. In order to do that though, some of teh concerns actually have to be explained.

Including KOS scripts for Planetouched? Why? Where? For everty Planetouched PC? Just tielfings?

Planetouched enclaves? To be quite honest, I can't seem to find any record of a canon enclave for planetouched. In fact one of teh concerns Rusty raised when he decided to ban them was that two planetouched in teh same room would be too much.

Harder to DM? Possibly. It certainly requires more effort, because there's more canon to learn. But unless you want to run a campaing in other planes, I really don't see why a tiefling or aasimar can't work on a regular campaign suited for their own alignments and goals, just like any other PC.

If there really is a genuine wish to settle this, then the points of contention must be properly addressed from both sides. If there isn't, we can carry on with endless " I want planetouched" and "Planetouched sucks" threads.

[Mulu]

BUT now there is a hard rule that covers such things!

I can think of two even more important rules that apparently were ignored in the original instance:

1) D&D. ALFA uses Dungeons & Dragons ("D&D").
2) Forgotten Realms. ALFA is set in the Forgotten Realms.

D&D has planetouched PC's now as canon. The Forgotten Realms has planetouched PC's now as canon. As I said before, ALFA deviates from canon occasionally, usually due to technical limitations. But here, there are no technical limitations despite some disingenuous attempts to portray such. The game comes with planetouched already included, and they shouldn't require any more special attention than a half-orc should, who get none. So why are we deviating from canon? Why are we breaking the first two pillars of ALFA without a good technical reason? That shouldn't be too difficult of a question to answer.

I don't expect this ruling to get reversed under current admin, as the decision-makers are entrenched. This becomes a topic for the next election, IMO.

[Mikayla]

The "next election" should be starting in about 2 or 3 weeks. It will be for the Player Admin position. The current Player Admin, me, heartily supports inclusion of Planetouched as I am sure everyone is aware. I will not, however, be standing for re-election. Please act accordingly.

[JaydeMoon]

You're right, Mulu, absolutely right.

Butcept...

"Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same."

In NWN2 ALL tieflings have horns! Without technical tinkering, we cannot make tieflings match canon! OH NOES! Technical limitation! No tieflings. Requires tech work to make them match canon. I win.

I don't expect this ruling to get reversed under current admin, as the decision-makers are entrenched. This becomes a topic for the next election, IMO.

I ALSO don't expect this ruling to be reversed under the current admin, because plane-touched supporters refuse to follow the steps outlined by Wynna to put the issue back on the table, calling them pointless and irrelevant. Therefore, you're absolutely right. It won't get resolved with the curent set of decision makers.

Never mind that in the current set of decision makers, only ONE admin is vehemently against their inclusion. Another admin simply doesn't want to bring the topic up for official action because it was decided on previously, however, that admin is willing to do so regardless if you simply show her why she should without resorting to empty claims. ONE of the admin is ecstatically FOR the adoption of planetouched. And two of them have leanings to include them.

Yeah, wait til the next set of Admin. For sure.

[Souvarine]

"Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same."

In NWN2 ALL tieflings have horns! Without technical tinkering, we cannot make tieflings match canon! OH NOES! Technical limitation! No tieflings. Requires tech work to make them match canon. I win.

So Drow females models should be larger and taller than the drow males. Humans should be allowed to have freckles on various parts of their bodies, pc models should look prettier as you add more Cha, too...

Get real.

[psycho_leo]

"Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same."

In NWN2 ALL tieflings have horns! Without technical tinkering, we cannot make tieflings match canon! OH NOES! Technical limitation! No tieflings. Requires tech work to make them match canon. I win.

So Drow females models should be larger and taller than the drow males. Humans should be allowed to have freckles on various parts of their bodies, pc models should look prettier as you add more Cha, too...

Get real.

I guess we really should make mandatory to add pretty smilies after each attempt of humor. Your joke has thus failed. Try again.

[JaydeMoon]

My joke has failed againzorz!!!

[HATEFACE]

Ergo, Wynna's helpful statement, her little hint to all you plane-touched wanters to give you a way to go about getting your plane-touched.

Oh, and I see absolutely nothing constructive in presenting an obvious straw man fallacy as an artificial hurdle to inclusion, other than to prove to me exactly how little thinking went into this, and how irrational the prejudices are against inclusion. This is a marketing issue, it will effect our future recruitment.

A little late response. All those in favor of doing something constructive for the inclusion of planetouched characters instead of this helpful thread say "Aye." Those opposed say "Nay," and "good luck & godspeed friends!"
Lets set up a mIRC chat room and get to thinking, preparing, and making the proposal. While we figure out a way to include them, those who are opposed to tieflings can figure out a way to delete them out of the game.
We could call ourselves "Team Tiefling" and wear cool baseball hats with horns on them. You guys could call yourselves "Team GTFO Tiefer!" and wear cool baseball hats with nothing on them or liek new england patriots logo you know? something.



Negativity will only draw this community down deeper into the brackish muck of obscurity it's already in. I've seen cults moar popular. Let's get to doing something Team Tiefling! Onward!

[Souvarine]

[quote=JaydeMoon]My joke has failed again[/quote]

That was a joke? gees, and i thought i had english humor covered...blah. Perhaps i switch to robotic analysis when i read your replies, though. Wonder why

Helios: We could certainly have some brainstorming cession going to make a unified proposal, i'll post a sort of draft this evening based on my proposal and the better ideas posted here...mixing brains always add more flavor.

Team Tiefling sounds good sports, but we could also have the CFIPTPCIA. Comitee for the inclusion of planetouched characters in alfa. The only sad element of Team Tiefling, is that Aasimars again get to roll under the covers.

[Mikayla]

Awesomesauce. Go Team Tiefling!

[HATEFACE]

Awesomesauce. Go Team Tiefling!

I may sound like I'm joking but I'm not (really). Let's get 'er done.

[JaydeMoon]

My joke has failed again

That was a joke? gees, and i thought i had english humor covered...blah. Perhaps i switch to robotic analysis when i read your replies, though. Wonder why

Because I'm such a GD genius you need a computer to follow my brilliant logic!