Hey, look man, I agree with you on a lot of points.
I'm all for their inclusion.
I think that the arguments against including them are fallacious, paranoid, overblown, etc, whatever, what have you.
All I'm trying to say is that repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over isn't really gonna get you anyplace.
Especially considering that it is possible to simply make a response, much like Zelk did, which answers these asinine concerns and actually does something to mollify all the idiots who feel differently than you do.
As for the positive effects of griping... if you have a gripe and you bring it to the attention of someone who can do something about it, that may be constructive. But if you are just incessantly whining about something, ESPECIALLY when an opportunity has been afforded to you to act, and someone has literally spelled out how you can constructively go about making the change you want to see... well... yeah, you're just griping and whining and snivelling and shut up already
Wynna wrote:I certainly read it, in the hopes that something new will be introduced, something along the lines of an implementation proposal, including estimation of manhours required to script a workable global plane-touched solution, an offer to do the scripting and a schedule by which proof of concept may be seen. The aspects that I can think of that require addressing before they can be considered new evidence and reason for a reopening of a case include PC models, NPC scripts, KOS scripts, repulsion scripts, new areas for plane-touched enclaves, DM perception that plane-touched are a problem to deal with and a reasonable plan for dealing with any potential over-population by plane-touched.
This would be my proposal:
PC models: This one I honestly don't have a good answer for because of the variety of ways in which planetouched aspects can represent visually. You can't enforce specific visual traits without canon requiring them, and the wide variety means that, at some level, we should expect certain features to be represented in the character description. If we can allow certain model features, so much the better; but we've managed with imagination in the past and I'm sure we can close the gaps that way.
NPC scripts: No significant effort needed; to whatever extent a server makes race-specific scripts, they can choose to implement this. Given the variety of ways in which PCs can manifest visual characteristics, it may be possible that NPCs might not even recognize without a spot check. Personally, given the combinatorics, I don't think these are a good use of resources even among the common PC races, let alone for planetouched. At least for the purpose of initial server creation.
KOS scripts: Whatever is written for drow can be easily implemented, though I imagine the number of areas with true KOS are rare indeed for the majority of planetouched. If not written for drow, then ALFA has made the policy statement that KOS scripts are never relevant. Better represented in most cases by DM-possession subplots, if done at all. My suggestion is we take the path of least resistance and don't overstate KOS unless there is a clear canon support for it.
Repulsion scripts: Again, whatever is implemented for other races can be easily adopted. If they are not built for drow, then ALFA's position should be interpreted that repulsion scripts are never relevant. And given the variety of visual manifestations, it may be difficult to justify a universal application.
*Sum up - Unless ALFA has changed its approach, we've always allowed a certain "generic" feature to most of these scripts - it's impracticable to consider all of the possibilities. Drow lean towards the "always hated" side, whereas aside from limited locations, most planetouched lean towards no worse than suspicion. So it seems the path of least resistance would be to have default be zero-effect unless specifically implemented by server canon. Contrast this, of course, with the NPC fighter out of the FRCS who is a troll - if NPCs can get used to trolls as not KOS, I'm sure we can make a moderately compelling case for guys with a faint smell of brimstone to be treated similarly.
New areas for planetouched-enclaves: Implemented by server if canon-appropriate. I suck on canon so I don't know if these even exist; I thought planetouched were generally too rare.
DM perception regarding overpopulation: I still believe that population dynamics should solve it, and that planetouched should not as a matter of policy be afforded any significantly greater attention than other PCs. That they look different might bring up DM-possessed subplots due to distrust, miscommunication, bias, or what not - but these need not be constant in nature. The more planetouched there are, the less special attention they would collectively generate for even being planetouched (thus overpopulation = gradual acceptance and/or "human"-ization of planetouched).
*Sum up - I believe this implementation, while not only low-impact, is designed to undercut the intrinsic "omg give me attention" value of the planetouched. DMs should be able to, and should actually, play on the heritage. But it should not in any way dominate the server or monopolize a DM's time; players choosing planetouched PCs for this reason are asking for illegitimate expenditure of resources, and ironically enough, deserve less attention.
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Past PC: Myrilis Te'fer
AlmightyTDawg wrote:
KOS scripts: Whatever is written for drow can be easily implemented, though I imagine the number of areas with true KOS are rare indeed for the majority of planetouched. If not written for drow, then ALFA has made the policy statement that KOS scripts are never relevant. Better represented in most cases by DM-possession subplots, if done at all. My suggestion is we take the path of least resistance and don't overstate KOS unless there is a clear canon support for it.
QFT. If we don't have KOS scripts for a race that actually raids the surface and is viewed as an enemy or at teh very least as a distrusted and momentary ally, we certainly wouldn't need them for planetouched.
Current PC: Gareth Darkriver, errant knight of Kelemvor
Se'rie Arnimane: Time is of the essence!
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Jaydemoon; Spamming for people to stop voicing their own opinion on behalf of your profound disbelief of their post's novelty value is not going to get you anywhere, ESPECIALLY when you have someone like me around.
It is fine to post about it and i respect the concern, but if we still stick around and voice our opinion (often in replies to what people answer back), then i think it is still a debate to have.
So no, i don't think we've been totally repeating ourselves, even if it goes one small step after the other, besides, we did get that opportunity, as you said. Pertaining to that, I made my comments where they are due.
I'm not telling you to stop spamming your opinions. I'm questioning the wisdom of endlessly doing so, with no other constructive input ESPECIALLY when someone (like the Lead Admin) unambiguously states what it will take to put the issue officially back on the table.
Wynna gave plane-touched supporters a HUGE opening. Only two people have thus far constructively responded to that opening as far as I can see.
A third person has been shoving that opening back in Wynna's face (basically).
So, Souvarine, as I see it, there is a choice to be made here.
Wynna has made it very plainly clear what must be done to put the topic back on the table, officially, and give you a REAL SHOT at getting planetouched included into ALFA.
What are you going to do with this opportunity? Point out the irrelevance of it? Rebel against the yoke of oppression; that you have to jump through hoops to get what you want? Continue to exchange arguements with me?
Or are you going to pony up and do what YOU can do to get those proposals up there (maybe you aren't scripter or builder, or even a haver of good ideas... but I bet you could find someone) and get this discussion out of these tedious, repetitive threads and onto the admin agenda?
Jaydemoon: Relax, i can't blame you from not knowing me...really you wouldn't have spent a single word asking what i would do.
But to answer you... I chose to go the pm route for a "proposal" , didn't expect people to actually post them here really, nor go postal on me because i didn't already, it's easier for Wynna to find them in her inbox than in this thread...but it's great to see that people care that much to take the time to write it all here.
Overall, I find that, going around the proposals and comments, the line of thought is quite homogeneous, mine included. That's very positive.
Implementation Proposal for Planetouched in A Land Far Away
As Presented By: AmarSldstill
The overall purpose of this document is to provide a conclusive argument and reasonable method of approach to implementing Planetouched into the play styles of those who enjoy ALFA. I will address all concerns and offer appropriate prevention and problem solving methods to all those that can be addressed. In the next few pages I ask you to keep your mind open, and to approach this from a neutral standpoint. This document is not meant to persuade you, but to offer compromise to a divisive issue for our community. There is no true way to make everyone happy with a decision, but there is a way we can at least reach a common ground and agree on something that is best for the community as a whole. This is the first step in a long process to reaching that point.
Lets start this journey where every issue should begin, Pro's and Con's. They will be as has been presented by the membership as a whole, as well as a few things that may not have been previously stated.
Let's take a look at the Pro's:
*Plane-touched are fun to play.
Though this is very much a matter of opinion and a case-by-case basis, but we cannot deny the
fact that there are members of our community that will enjoy play of one or more of the various plane-touched races. This is the reason that puts it on the table at all – If no one wanted to play one, there wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Now, what the real question should be here, is “Can plane-touched be fun to play with?” To that I say yes, and personally believe that they will be a valuable addition to our game as a whole, and will make the experience more enjoyable.
*Plane-touched are Canon. Including as a PC Race.
Yes, but they were not always so. So which side are we to go with? Do we follow the game as it progresses and grows? Or do we remain stuck in the old and outdated versions of the setting where many things were different? I say we move forward. If you aren't moving forward you are going in the wrong direction.
*Plane-touched are included in the NWN2 base game.
This makes implementation simple, as most of it has been taken care of by the developers. Meaning we do not have to script any racial abilities or create any appearances (heads) for the PCs.
*More base races offer more variety.
True, and what a lot of gamers look for is variety, as well as access to choices. It does not matter if they will or will not make use of all those options, so long as the option exists. Would you rather play a linear game, or a non-linear game and the same path every time anyway? It is not necessarily the option that matters, rather that the fact that options exist. The more variety we can offer prospective players, the more enticing our community can be.
*The implementation process can be as effortless as the builder's decide to make it.
Your server can either treat these PCs the same as any other, or you can go through the long and involved process of creating “Repulsion scripts”, new NPC models, KOS Scripts, Faction modifiers, skill checks, and all sorts of other tricks and traps. The end result will be little difference in the grand scheme. The latter will take more time and provide an “automated” feel to your server. Where as the prior will take no time or energy on your part, but will need a DM present to have any racially oriented PC to NPC interactions.
That about sums it up for the Pro's, now lets take a look at the Con's:
*”Plane-touched hinder my immersion.”
This argument has been presented on multiple occasions and has yet to be given a conclusive reason behind it. Why do they ruin immersion? Is it the dark skin, red eyes, and tiny horns? Perhaps the tall attractive man with bright golden eyes is difficult for your suspension of disbelief? Or maybe the Fire Genasi, with flames licking over the top of their skull? If these ruin your immersion, I do stand to question why Golems, Zombies, Drow, Demons, Wizards, and Beholders do not. Faerun is a High-Fantasy setting, and the plane-touched are part of that element and fit in with all the Themes and messages of the setting. As such, they should be part of the immersion into the world itself, rather than as a deterrent. I present that as part of the world, they cannot be a capable of ruining the immersion into that world.
*ECL in a primarly Level 1 start system.
The level resistance in these cases is a minute variable. In exchange for this they get a few minute resistances, a low level spell-like ability usable once per day. Usually along the lines of Darkness or Light, and an extraneous like Darkvision. Lets compare this to the abilities of a Gnome. Gnomes are granted: Access to various 0th level spells, a resistance to illusions, the ability to automatically “Disbelieve” an illusion. +1 to Save DC for Illusion spells. Darkvision,
and specialized combat training. Even the Human gets a Feat and a +1 to their base modifier of skill ranks. And in exchange for these simple powers the Plane-touched get to deal with an intense amount of predisposed prejudice, tell-tale signs of their heritage, and a hinderance to their level. I would argue that the +1 ECL does not accurately represent their strength as comparative to the actual level progression. Personally, I would be willing to lose all of the abilities and have them replaced by the human abilities, but I do not suppose many would agree with that point of view.
*Plane-touched mean extra work for DM's
I have yet to see a realistic proposal or account of exactly what “work” this might be. And any I have thought of to date have been exactly the same as should be done for all PCs.
Sub-Arguments:
“Plane-touched require custom built campaigns to accommodate them into plot.” - How is this true in any way it isn't true for all other PC's? Plane-touched may not fit into some or even many campaigns, but neither does an Androgynous Half-Orc Bard, or even a Paladin. I can firmly guarantee that no DM will be required to tailor their campaigns to a Plane-touched against their will. They are in volunteer positions and volunteer to do any work they undertake. No one will require a DM to change things for their character to be accommodated, though they may try to find ways to work themselves into the plot (on their own, I'd like to add), they won't try to change it.
“Plane-touched would require all sorts of scripting to be added to make them work properly.” - By that same thinking so does an Elf in the Cold Lands. Or a human in an Elven city. Scripting in all kinds of repulsion and reactions should be an all-or-nothing deal. If you find a Tiefling wandering around the Cormyr City Offices without a disguise on and their horns in plain view for all to see, then you should take it upon yourself to cause some trouble for them, since they aren't (generally) portraying the concept correctly. The same as if a Int 4 Half-Orc were to write an epic trilogy, or solve complex puzzles. But metagaming is not on the table for discussion here, as it is a seperate and unrelated issue.
So there you have the Pro's and Con's of including plane-touched in the community, as well as my insight onto each issue.
So, how do we get these races in, anyway?
This will be a step by step process.
Step 1: The administration and powers-that-be decide to include Plane-touched into A.L.F.A..
This is a medial step, there is no need to go over the details in this document as it will be entirely up to the administration to decide for themselves and how to go about deciding it. I'm not writing this to tell them what to do, just suggest ways to do it. After this step, I would suggest that the project may not be aborted, as people will be putting significant amount of work into the project and it would be unwise to make them commit to this only to have the plug pulled when they are done.
Step 2: A hand selected team of ambitious volunteers will collect information on Plane-touched throughout the realms, and organize canon information that is relevant to the project.
Duties this specifically entails are:
1.Plane-touched populations of the various areas of Faerun.
2.Stigma's of the populace towards the various types of Plane-touched that will be in play, and where it is not available suggestions will be made based on the Leadership and History of the Nations in question, and their religious tendencies.
3.Using the previous two elements this Team will devise a concise list of what sort of scripts would make sense in which servers. Such things as Tieflings being Kill-On-Sight in Daggerdale. Or Perhaps the Fire Genasi are given a heightened respect in Thay.
4.The team will create a list of no less than one hundred suggestions of ways to quickly incorporate a Plane-touched PC into an already ongoing campaign. No specific breed will have any less than 10 suggestions, and no two suggestions will be similar in nature. This will help to inspire DM's on ways to include Plane-touched PC's they are unsure of how to deal with, as well as give them quick fixes to situations and lessen any work that may come on their part.
5.When finished, the team will compile their data into Wiki or .doc format, and sign it off to their supervising Admin..
This team will be under the purview of the DM Administrator, as it is collection and documentation of Canon information and DM resources. It will also report to the Tech Admin. On their examination of scripts. This project should take 3-9 Volunteers, no less than 2 Months, and no more than 4.
Step 3: All necessary scripts will have template designs written up, for simple and easy incorporation into any ALFA servers.
The Tech Admin will oversee this step, my suggestion is again to hire on a team assigned to this specifically, rather than take time from Tech's already very busy hands. This project should take 2-3 Volunteers, and no more than a single month to complete (not including any more extensive bug testing required by the Tech Admin.)
Step 4: Information Spreading and Unification
This step is taking the compiled information and handing it off to the HDMs and Builders for implementation and their own knowledge. The information on racial stigma in different nations and population should be handed off to the Player base as well so they may accommodate any backgrounds accordingly.
Step 5: Apply-To-Play
In order to address all concerns with overpopulation, I suggest we require an application for the play of a Plane-touched character. They are specialty characters that should not be available at large to the player-base. They are supposed to be rare, and should be played only if the character's existance is going to be enjoyable for more than the one playing them. The application will require the following information.
1.Player's Forum Name
2.Character's Name
3.Character's Gender
4.Character's Age at Creation
5.Character's specific breed and at least 2 generations of lineage information.
6.A Detailed Physical Description of the Character
7.A Character background.
8.“Why do you want to play this character?”
9.“Is there any way to play this concept without being Plane-touched? If so, why not play the other options?”
10.“How will you be like a DM in the play of your character?” (Yes, this question is confusing, and specifically so. It is meant to provoke a thoughtful response.)
11.“How will other player's enjoy your character?”
I suggest that the OAS Team or the Anonymous team currently in charge of player applications be given purview of these, as they are already experienced with similar things. If accepted or denied, the PA will send the applying player a notification. The accepted player may then create their character as it was on the application. The Team in charge of these applications will be aware of and maintain a limit of either 2 or 3 Tieflings times the total number of servers that are Live.
IE: (Number of Planetouched)=(Number of Servers)x(2 or 3)
This limit is a soft cap, and is meant to keep population density accurate ALFA-wide. No characters already in play will be forced to retire should a server leave, though the cap may go down, meaning applications may have to be put on hold for an extended period of time. If a single application goes above and beyond all expectations, the PA maintains the right to allow exceptions to the cap – But this is intended only for those exemplary individual instances where something may be too good to wait for.
Last edited by Amar on Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Souvarine, I'm not not relaxed. I'm also not directing anything I'm actually saying AT you (though I may be responding TO you).
My statements are general. The 'You' that I keep speaking about isn't 'You, Souvarine' or 'You, Mulu' or 'You, Amar' or even 'Your mom'. It's everyone who feel they have a stake in this. So, if you've sent your proposal, more power to you, you are doing exactly what I'm urging folks who feel strongly about this to do.
Amar, when you're done with your book, will you sign a copy for me
Now, Mulu does have a point with stating that other races, alignments and classes also require extra work off DMs. So, it stands to reason that DMs may just be a bit concerned about the overall thing they are expected to do.
Thus, a decent proposal should include giving them something back in turn - which brings us back to the Rotku compromise.
To recapitulate: Rotku proposed that in NWN 2, we include plane-touched surface dwelling races, while skipping the underdark races. Or formulated differently: Cap ALFA effective starting level at 2. The reasoning behind it is easy to understand: Underdark races need special infrastructure and are by and large not conducive to the overall "mainstream" campaign, interactions are, mostly hostile, despite some "end phase" sometimes a bit forced appearing solutions. Planetouched, however, as surface dwelling races are conducive to the overall campaign and offer something for everyone to marvel at or interact with, they do not require such vast investments of special infrastructure and the like. Of course it's the other way around as well: underdark races don't really profit too much from the building efforts for the "mainstream" races and campaign. With planetouched, that would be a non issue - all building and effort of ALFA would benefit its whole populace, be they surface dwellers with angelic ancestry, humans, dwarves or even women .
On top of that, we would save a load of headaches about LA discussion.
Then again, I'm rather convinced the Rotku compromise would generate about as much fervour from a small and vocal interest group.
But still, it seems a reasonable avenue - don't only ask people to supply more for you, give something back in return that makes it easier for them overall. I fully believe planetouched are a lot less work and demand a lot less special attention and catering to their needs than underdark races do, so here there would be a persuasive argument to be made - in fact, it seems likely that some DM votes on this topic were influenced on their observations with the current "problem" races when they passed through, or asked things, from their server (Daggerdale comes to mind).
And on top of that, suddenly we'd have the way open to some nice other solutions as well, for instance to start all characters at level 2 to kill the whole LA debate (since planetouched don't go over LA+1), or find another easy solution, as the gap is suddenly small.
Trying to axe underdark races would only add fuel to the fire, IMO. For those not interested in reading lengthy proposals, so far every proposal has essentially been the same as mine, namely it requires zero work to include planetouched.
Mulu wrote:Trying to axe underdark races would only add fuel to the fire, IMO. For those not interested in reading lengthy proposals, so far every proposal has essentially been the same as mine, namely it requires zero work to include planetouched.
I agree, everyone who has posted go along the same school of thought. What this means to me is that there is alot of people coming to the same conclusion, and...in an ironic sort of way, Mulu resumes it pretty much.
Since we apparently can't see it, we would need the dms to step forward and voice exactly what work the planetouched would specifically require (including aasimar) on their part. The work must not be related to the player, nor the alignment nor a case that may apply to non-standard race already included in alfa.
I would go further and ask of builders what work the planetouched would specifically require (including aasimar) on their part. In which occasion would a global and/or local script be needed for the direct race call of planetouched characters. Is the effect of the script supported by canon sources? As an example, if someone would want planetouched to be KOS in a city, is there any background supporting it? As well, when would be the cases where only planetouched characters would require such a script? Odds are that if a city is intolerent to the point of having means to detect planteouched (we're talking magical stuff, because the casual observer will see a human), it will be even more intolerent toward half-orcs, half-elves and obviously drows.
What i would really want is precise answers specifically concerning planetouched characters.
Veilan wrote:I.e, every proposal so far has done nothing to address the DMs concerns, but call them invalid?
Null Punkte, try again.
Perhaps they really are invalid then? Though I'm with Souvarine, let's hear what the real issue is, because it sounds to me like the issue is simply, "I don't like them."
So, basically you want to put the burden of proof on the opponents of plane-touched? Have THEM explain themselves and justify their line of thinking?
That's all well and good I suppose, but, unfortunately, they already won and the current rule concerning the inclusion of plane-touched suits them fine: No plane-touched in ALFA.
So, if they refuse to answer your concerns, and they refuse to specifically address each point as you have laid out...
...and you (again this is the greater you, not you, Souvarine, who has stated that you have already sent your proposal) then refuse to follow Wynna's suggestion of what is necessary to put the question back on the table...
...then don't be surprised if the only places tieflings exist in ALFA is in these pointless threads.
Alara wrote:I.e, every proposal so far has done nothing to address the DMs concerns, but call them invalid?
Null Punkte, try again.
Calling the concerns invalid is a tactic one can use in their proposal... thus far it hasn't gotten anyone anywhere, but you sure can just continue to do it.
Here, I'll give it a go:
"Dude, the fact that plane-touched aren't included in ALFA is dumB! We're totally gonna miss out on certain people that would join, but won't because we won't allow plane touched. Your concerns that we might have to build or script extra content or devote extra DM attention for/to plane-touched are ridiculous and wrong. Since you are ridiculous and wrong and I am obviously educated, well-spoken, and post excessively, you MUST see things my way and go ahead and include plane-touched."
Wow, look out folks, plane-touched inclusion is ON ITS WAY!!!
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