Use Your Illusion

[Zelknolf]

Major image could be manipulated to disguise an individual if the casting mage is clever, maintains concentration, and the target doesn't leave the area of the spell.

"Figments cannot make something seem to be something else."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview ... ptions.htm

Seemings is a 5th lvl spell (not multiple castings of a first level spell... end result might be the same... oops, but it isn't, save DC is higher! So is the duration I think).

Seeming
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeming.htm
"This spell functions like disguise self, except that you can change the appearance of other people as well. Affected creatures resume their normal appearances if slain."

It still has the limitations of disguise self (i.e. it's exclusively visual -- the different body odor from a non-indigenous diet could give someone disguised by seeming away.)

[JaydeMoon]

I stand corrected on Major Image.

Seemings is STILL a fifth level spell.

It can function like Disguise Self all it wants. It's still a different and more powerful spell.

Regardless, the power of disguise self vs the power of seemings does not effect WHEN an individual makes a saving throw.

My point was that just because it's a first level spell or a ninth level spell, etc, it's not a 'flimsy cover' in terms of how real or not real it seems when the illusion is believed. You either belief the illusion or you don't. If you believe it, it looks absolutely real to you, regardless of the 'power' of the spell.

If you walk into a tavern of 1000 people and ALL of them study you intently and FAIL their saving throws, then you look 100% really like whatever it is you are trying to pass yourself off as to ALL of them, from the lowliest beggar to the most powerful mage in the room.

Who makes a save is not based on which spell you used to disguise yourself (or your friends), but on the circumstances surrounding your use of the spell.

[Mulu]

Starting a fire would probably cause anyone seeing you start the fire to study you. They get a save.

Hard to study someone who runs into the shadows. The whole point of such an incident would be to try to frame someone, or at least some group. You'd be trying to get a short term witness.

I never tried to use illusion in NWN, but in PnP we used it quite frequently. 1st edition had a lot of good illusion spells to choose from. Heck, even a dancing lights spell can draw away an undesired encounter. The higher level illusions still had effect even if succesfully disbelieved.

A far better magical approach to disguise is the polymorph self spell. It's not supposed to be a choice of five monsters. You should be able to polymorph yourself into an elf or whatever, and be undetectable to all but those who can detect magic, and even then all they detect is magic. It would be easy to duplicate that effect with set appearance. I suppose the same could be true for illusions, I just never had the issue come up in game.

[danielmn]

*rolls a D20 and gets a 20*

I see through the illusion of this thread.

[Vaelahr]

Even when one makes the save roll, they may not react negatively.

You know ...after paying with services under way, its sometimes best to just ignore the adam's apple and go through with it.

[Zelknolf]

You know ...after paying with services under way, its sometimes best to just ignore the adam's apple and go through with it.

Well, now with that example, disguise self is definately not the order of the day. You want something that'll actually give a proper shape change (alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange), so tactile elements (like anatomy... or whiskers) don't cause problems.

... and I suppose that'd fix the adam's apple thing, too... I guess.

... but what exactly an arcane spellcaster is doing using illusions to masquerade as someone else to sell himself... I'm just sayin'... when you've got wizard levels, there are better ways to make money.

[JaydeMoon]

But can you have as much fun with them?

[Zelknolf]

But can you have as much fun with them?

Suppose wizards have more potential for funz...

Shocking Grasp + Craft Wondrous Item = Violet Wand

[Mayhem]

Surely the easiest way to adjudicate who gets a save vs Disguise Self is by use of the rules for disguise?

It gives a +10 bonus to diguise checks. So start by making the opposed spot/disguise check. Anyone who fails to see through the disguise accepts it at face value, and gets no save vs the illusion.

(all the usual modifiers should apply)

Anyone who passes their opposed spot check realizes that this person is not who they say they are, and gets a will save vs the illusion.

If they fail this will save, they still know that something is wrong but can't see who is under the disguise (just as if the disguise were a physical mask rather than a magical one).

If they pass the will save, they can now see right through the illusory disguise.

[JaydeMoon]

No.

Zelk can say why. She already did, earlier in this thread, I think.

[Zelknolf]

Zelk can say why. She already did, earlier in this thread, I think.

Because the rules give a specific allowance for how to handle a disguise check if it is aided by illusory magic and an observer can see through the magic (by saves or true sight) and because all illusions grant saves for "interaction."

Of course, nothing stops a character from creating a very good mundane disguise and then casting disguise self to enhance it. Even with no ranks in disguise, 14 cha, a +2 kit, and 5 ranks in bluff is already +6 to the check, though the threshold for people getting a spot check is a little lower (attention or suspicion vs. interaction) and disguise grants 1 spot check per hour.

It all adds up to the same stuff, honestly. Good bullshitting is a refined skill and is difficult to master. I would expect that we'd be looking at mid-level bards, rogues, or clerics with the trickery domain before we could reasonably regularly ignore the commoners ('cuz natural 20 on a skill check isn't auto success). Not being a good bullshitter and relying on magic has its risk, and it'll be represented by that natural 20 on the will save (even if you somehow lay down a DC 30 illusion, Thag, the 6 wis half-orc commoner 1, will see right through it 5% of the times he tries.)