Use Your Illusion

[JaydeMoon]

I don't think either of our cases allows for use of illusion 'with impunity'.

[ThinkTank]

Illusionary manhood enhancment

Will save vs. tactile!

[Vaelahr]

Shit, I once logged into Daggerford as a DM only to find Zelknolf's drow PC walking into the Circle Of Axes Caravan & Trading Outpost along the Trade Way. Her disguise? Qu'ellar crest armor, Lolthian shield, and a hood. I did some NPC possession before she could enter dialog with the merchant and completely wreck immersion. The drow was quickly ran off but I mentioned to her OOC that her drow was close to being butchered. She said, "that would have been terribly meta."

[FanaticusIncendi]

Um, yeah well I guess you have to ask yourself, if the armor actually has a Qu'ellar crest/insignia on it, and if so would the merchant recognize it for a drow symbol? Seems like a long-shot to me. Did the shield have a giant spider emblazoned on it? Merchants can't click an examine button and read the description of the gear you're wearing.

Anyway... am I talking again?

*wanders off*

[Vaelahr]

Um, yeah well I guess you have to ask yourself, if the armor actually has a Qu'ellar crest/insignia on it...

It did.

...and if so, would the merchant recognize it for a drow symbol?

No.

Seems like a long-shot to me. Did the shield have a giant spider emblazoned on it?

No, it had ornate webbing.

Merchants can't click an examine button and read the description of the gear you're wearing.

Indeed not. And the merchant was just interested in business. The guards however have other interests. They don't click any examine-buttons, but they do look at what an individual is wearing/carrying and react accordingly; "Welcome. From the Tyrran Mosque I see. Where's the rest of your company?" , "Hail Waterdhavian! How goes the patrol?" , etc. The elven-figured lass - cloaked and hooded, clad in exotica, speaking in a strange accent (surface common no less) - walks in off the troll-infested Trade Way alone. Suspicion and investigation ensue, especially from the seasoned guards as were present at that Outpost. Refusing to show one's face when asked is no way to break ice with a guard already on edge.

[Misty]

Well, now you know it's terribly meta to kill drow PCs on the surface.

[FanaticusIncendi]

Yeah it was more a rhetorical query pertaining to the subject matter, not the individual case.

[psycho_leo]

Well, now you know it's terribly meta to kill drow PCs on the surface.

ROFL. Drow PCs are an endangered species.

[Zelknolf]

Well, now you know it's terribly meta to kill drow PCs on the surface.

His justification for the treatment was - as he said quite directly - the dwarven armor the PC was wearing and the Auvryndar crest that he wouldn't recognize. I'm sure that over the past two years the 2'6" pickpocketer of 1' long objects has seasoned his shpiel into something less ridiculous, but I was responding to that specific rationale.

[Vaelahr]

His justification for the treatment was - as he said quite directly - the dwarven armor the PC was wearing and the Auvryndar crest that he wouldn't recognize.

Duergar-made armor not dwarven armor. Barra wouldn't have been able to fit into armor for dwarves you silly girl! Barra the drow-warrior-who-wasn't-cool-enough-to-be-a-yathrin looked worthy of suspicion by the many guards and the caravan master. That's my justification for having her run out of the Outpost. I could have had her held for more pressing questions and revealed racial identity which would have ended not-so-fun. So instead, I allowed play to continue while still keeping IC. So there!

I'm sure that over the past two years the 2'6" pickpocketer of 1' long objects has seasoned his shpiel into something less ridiculous, but I was responding to that specific rationale.

Mossi the pickpocketing-wonder-of-Faerun was actually a towering 3' 4". And wands are between 6-12". Furthermore, the DMs congratulated me on a legal and lucky PP.

Although I will say that Mossi has pocket-picked some goofy items in her day. Snagged a hand crossbow from Nawiel once, which resulted in Misty giving my bottom a good spanking. Loaf-of-bread rule. Always wanted to PP an actual loaf-of-bread. That would have been awesome.

[Veilan]

Reactions though: if a poor Sembian Commoner notices "a translucent outline" of a little old lady overtop of a guy dripping in arms and armor, that Sembian Commoner might care to keep their mouth shut, thereby preserving both of their carefully conserved hitpoints. Hell, even if an undisguised walking armory gives a peasanty-level NPC the stink eye, 90% of the time credible DMing of that situation will see the meek citizen grin and bear it. Same goes for even a pair of say, fighter 4 NPCs employed as city guards. Unless the "illusion-toting individual" is clearly up to no good, accosting them is going to sometimes take someone fairly brave or certain of their ability to summon backup.

This is a bit off-topic, but let me state a hearty +1. Often times DMs seem to over-identify with their NPCs and having them back down or react appropriately to that adamantine-clad greatsword-toting magic-bristling seasoned hero apparently is perceived as surrendering the DM's authority, and a mix-up of OOC and IC interests happens. This of course is not an ALFA-specific problem, it happens often enough in PnP groups.

Now, back to the thread... discussion of specific events best be picked up in PM by a complaint / concern to the respective DM - HDM - DMA official (Brokenbone), in that order.

I rather endorse Zelk's current implementation and line of argument. A level 1 spell should not outperform spells as high as 4th and maybe even 5th spell level just because we debate over 2.0 or 3.0/3.5. Maybe get rid of the spam message and replace it with "over 5 NPCs are affected, please check what the PC is doing", but disguise self is definetely not a spell of sufficient power to reliably fool an inn-room, angry mob or congregation, even if only casual recognition takes place. I also believe that sentiments presented here about what goes on in an inn room are a bit anachronistical, "minding your own business and sipping your drink" is a distinctly modern behaviour. Go visit a remote village, people will look at you even today, and even if you seemingly blend in.

[Zelknolf]

Go visit a remote village, people will look at you even today, and even if you seemingly blend in.

Back then, some of the places would ad hoc a song to tease you about one of your features, to boot (depending on how sloshed they were, and how friendly they were when sloshed)!

Maybe get rid of the spam message and replace it with "over 5 NPCs are affected, please check what the PC is doing"

Well, technically, if a PC is using this spell in the presence of NPCs without a DM present, that player is going against the ALFA ruling on disguise. They can't even plea ignorance, because they get a reminder on the server window every time the spell is cast.

In either case, spam happens because the script is unsophistocated. I'm not emotionally attached to the tenish lines of script that make it happen, and if someone's keen on a better system and is willing to put the legwork into it, I'm all for it.

[JaydeMoon]

I also believe that sentiments presented here about what goes on in an inn room are a bit anachronistical, "minding your own business and sipping your drink" is a distinctly modern behaviour. Go visit a remote village, people will look at you even today, and even if you seemingly blend in.

I have already conceded that ye olde time Cheers would probably be much more likely to behave as Zelk says.

I still think though, that given the combination of 'not-caring', not have the balls to confront adventurer, etc would result in not rolling individual will saves for anyone unless they are critical NPCs, or someone the PC interacts with in some manner, while in a crowded environment where odd, unusual, different, new, strange people pass through on a regular basis.

You guys keep talking about a cozy hearth in small town Daleslands and I'm talking about seedy wharf bar in Waterdeep.

Just because the most recent example (successful use by way of the script) by the instigator of this thread occurred in said cozy hearth, I am not limiting my discussion to such.

All I'm saying is that not EVERYONE is warranted a saving throw vs your illusion by virtue of you walking past them, near them, down the street from them, etc.

And I think that there is a major consensus on that point.

Next is a lot of this, that, and the other about who might take more than passing interest in you, whether more than passing interest equates to an actual standard action spent 'studying' the individual (I never gleaned anything from a book staring at it with passing interest), whether (upon making their save) they even bother to do anything about it. which they might not, for a variety of reasons presented. Or they very well might, for another variety of reasons presented.

All very valid. All very interesting.

I think, ultimately, addressing the will save issue, I will reserve actual saves amongst non-critical NPCs when interaction happens, or when the PC actually draws attention to him/herself. All other potential will saves will be assumed to have either failed or not warranted a reaction with negative consequences to the illused individual.

This serves to expedite gameplay, simplify things for me, give PCs the benefit of the doubt in many circumstances, without providing an unbalancing tool for lower level magic use.

Example 1:

PC walks up to three guards and tries to make his way into a keep, illused as a non-threatening individual who 'looks official'.

Resolution

All three guards make will saves.

Example 2:

PC cruises down crowded market-place in major trade city while disguised as a 'non-descript' individual on his way to a seedy tavern near the docks.

Resoution

No saves made, I don't really care and don't want to run some plot slowing thing where some random gawker 'notices' and does... what? I don't know, it's unimportant.

Example 3:

PC arrives at the seedy tavern. He passes the bouncer, sidles up to the bar, shoves his way between two patrons, orders a drink from the bartender, then tries to find an empty table.

Resolution

Saves for the bouncer, the two patrons, the bartender, the serving girl, and the paranoid corner table guy.

Example 4:

PC arrives in Cheers type bar in a small town. There are 14 regulars, the bartender, the serving girl.

Resolution

16 NPCs attempt saves.

A variety of extenuating and mitigating circumstances could exist that might serve to alter the resolutions above. A human illused as a non-descript human in Selgaunts market-place might warrant no save attempts, but an elf disguised the same way might warrant a handful... randomly determined perhaps by a 2d6 or 3d4.

Walking into said shady bar illused in generally the same dress as the reality will garner less 'saves' than someone in full plate illused in peasant garb, as I decide that several individuals in the 'crowded' tavern 'notice' that the guys cloths feel like, well.... full plate, and that doesn't match and 'study' happens, maybe even 'interaction'.

These are not intended to be inflexible demonstrations of how I would treat things, more to just give an idea of my philosophy on illusions after absorbing the points in the discussion here.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on the matter!

[Mulu]

I have to agree with Zelk on the 1st level illusion spell. You don't walk into a tavern with such a flimsy cover, it's best suited for a distance observation, guards in a tower sort of thing. Or start a fire looking like someone else and run off into the night... so they only got a brief look at you.

But I like the examples posted nontheless.

[JaydeMoon]

Starting a fire would probably cause anyone seeing you start the fire to study you. They get a save.

Disguise self is a first level spell. This is reflected in the difficulty to pierce the illusion, which is a DC that is lower than higher level spells. But other spells that could offer illusory disguise are NOT first level spells. Major image could be manipulated to disguise an individual if the casting mage is clever, maintains concentration, and the target doesn't leave the area of the spell. Seemings is a 5th lvl spell (not multiple castings of a first level spell... end result might be the same... oops, but it isn't, save DC is higher! So is the duration I think).

If the illusion is believed, then the illusion is believed, taken for what it is, regardless of it is a 1st level illusion or a 9th level illusion. (this does not take into account, of course, more specific disguises, which then may call for a disguise check or some shat)

The power of the spell is reflected in the DC of the attempted save once you study or interact with it.