Use Your Illusion

[wvincenti]

Yes indeed.
I tried it once and spammed the entire server until the spell wore off since the announcements all went out on the Shout channel. The spell needs some fine tuning me'thinks.

-Bill

Bill, you're talking about the scripted in game mechanics?

yeah, that's what kind of brought the question on, noticing disguise self on a few individuals prompting will rolls from every Tom Dick and Harry that came within 50 feet.

[JaydeMoon]

Alright, replace illusion with figments and glamers, I suppose, since that's the actual context of the thread.

Useless 5th level spells still seems off to me.

In any case, my question still stands:

Should EVERYBODY in that tavern get a save just by virtue of being in the presence of your illused self?

[Brokenbone]

You can have presence without interaction, but you probably can't have interaction without presence. Glancing at, and then past, someone, is normal. Staring is arguably not abnormal, but staring is not a risk free proposition... especially in adventurer circles, when folks are carrying three swords, two shields, wear their plate armor to bed, etc.

If an illusionist visiting a tavern full of bumpkins chooses to emulate, via disguise self, their drab homespun brown clothing, callused hands, dirt under the nails, etc., he is more likely to have luck avoiding notice than if he'd chosen a disguise as the local monarch dressed in cloth of gold from head to toe. People look briefly, go back to business, absent special situations like the disguised person approaching and interrogating them, or maybe the community being so close knit that everyone knows everyone else, and all strangers are heavily scrutinized. Anonymity of a big city vs. very small village feel, could play into it.

Maybe I'm just not that observant of a person, nor crazy. If I walk through a shopping mall or a bar or any other place where people congregate, I'm unlikely to remember faces, modes of dress, or other details later. I will notice people who really stick out though (holy crap that guy is 7 feet tall or wearing shorts in the winter), or maybe people I speak to directly (cashier? waiter? sales clerk?)

Any case, interacting isn't a high threshold test, but it's a higher threshold than "is looked at."

EDIT: I keep using "personal disguise" in examples, but it'd apply equally to cases where someone, via illusion, perhaps hid the presence of a door or window in a room. People expecting a door they've seen 100 times before are going to be the ones who pause, think, and look hard at the scene, people who've never visited that room before mightn't realize something's amiss.

[Zelknolf]

Should EVERYBODY in that tavern get a save just by virtue of being in the presence of your illused self?

This I already answered. No, but the chances of not being discovered in that tavern are so remote that they'd might as well.

I tried it once and spammed the entire server until the spell wore off since the announcements all went out on the Shout channel. The spell needs some fine tuning me'thinks.

Write up a proposal and script it. Cipher has a fine system for tech changes in NWN1.

Useless 5th level spells still seems off to me.

It's not useless in every situation. It's useless in large crowds. Should one want to use seeming (which is just repeated castings of a level 1 spell, anyway) to fool two or three people, you're well within the range of the spell, and you've even got a pretty good chance of it working (Save DCs on seeming being in the 18-24 range, depending on spells, gear, feats, etc.) Got a right fine chance of getting past a blockade or walking into city gates with the spell.

However, there are plenty of 5th spells that are downright useless somewhere. (coincidentally, most spells are useless in a crowded tavern, unless you'd like to kill the people inside.) I don't see "lots of people around" being at all an unusual situation for a spell to be nearly useless, given the situations when other spells don't work:
Fifth Level Sorc/Wiz Spells That Are Useless In A Situation
Break Enchantment - what if no one's cursed?
Dismissal - what if there are not outsiders about?
Mage's Private Sanctum - this one would suck in a crowded place, too, what with people being able to just walk in.
Cloudkill - doesn't work underwater, and does squat vs. dwarves
Invisible Watchdog - if you need personal protection and move
Major Creation - if you don't have ranks in craft
Lesser Planar Binding - if you fail your charisma check, if you don't cast dimensional anchor fast enough, or if the circle of protection is disturbed. (of course, the outsider is likely to kill you if it makes its save)
Wall of Stone - if airborne
Prying Eyes - in the dark
Feeblemind - vs. undead, constructs, vermin (and generally nerfed vs. non-spellcasters)
Hold Monster - vs. undead, constructs, vermin, dragons, elementals, or oozes
Mind Fog - vs. undead. constructs, and vermin
Symbol of Sleep - vs. undead, constructs, vermin, dragons, elementals, oozes, and elves
Cone of Cold - vs. anything with the cold subtype
Mirage Arcana* - vs. lots of people
Nightmare* - vs. undead, constructs, and vermin
Persistent Image* - vs. lots of people
Seeming* - vs. lots of people
Blight - vs. anything but plants
Animal Growth - if there are no friendly animals about
Baleful Polymorph - vs. oozes, plants, shapechangers, and anyone with polymorph + silent/still spell
Transmute Rock To Mud - in any non-stone building
Transmute Mud to Rock - indoors
Waves of Fatigue - vs. constructs and undead

Fifth Level Spells That Are Easy As Fsck To Counter
Summon Monster V - most temples are warded against outsiders of opposing doctorines, preventing a summon of that kind from entering. Circle of Protection vs. Alignment would have the effect, were all of our summons not dire animals.
Teleport - dimensional anchor!
Dominate Person - protection from alignment
Magic Jar - protection from alignment

Fifth Level Spells That Are Actually Consistently Useful
Contact Other Plane
Telepathy Bond
Bigby's Interposing Hand
Sending
Wall of Force
Dream*
False Vision*
Shadow Evocation* (by the time they get to saying "Dude, that was an illusion," those who failed their will saves have already been pwned)
Symbol of Pain (unless you're a good guy... then you're gonna take some alignment hits here)
Fabricate
Overland Flight
Passwall
Telekinesis
Permanency

Illusion spells have been asterisked for easy finding.

[JaydeMoon]

In any case, ultimately you and I disagree on the level of attention a majority of people give to others when they cruise past.

I think that few enough people will pay you enough mind that you've got a decent enough chance of cruising through crowded areas with an illusion cast on you without blowing your cover.

I am getting that you feel it's the opposite and that most people will pay you enough mind to warrant a whole lot of will saves to disbelieve. (correct me if I'm wrong)

My experience, observations, and casual studies indicate that people are easily fooled, don't pay much attention, and see what they want to see or expect to see.

Putting this together with my understanding of when you are allowed a save (study or interaction)... it would take some great evidence to convince me that anyone outside of those making direct contact with you, directly speaking with you, or directly interested in you should be allowed a will save vs your illusion via 'interaction'.

[JaydeMoon]

Yes indeed.
I tried it once and spammed the entire server until the spell wore off since the announcements all went out on the Shout channel. The spell needs some fine tuning me'thinks.

-Bill

Perhaps being spammed on the shout channel is a bit much, but the usefulness to DMs getting the rolls seems apparent to me.

Maybe I don't need all of them, but should I decide that folks get a chance to roll a save, it's nice that it's done for me already.

[Zelknolf]

I am getting that you feel it's the opposite and that most people will pay you enough mind to warrant a whole lot of will saves to disbelieve. (correct me if I'm wrong)

My experience, observations, and casual studies indicate that people are easily fooled, don't pay much attention, and see what they want to see or expect to see.

I'm working in the realm of statistical probabilities. I'll agree that there are lots of people who do nothing that would qualify as interaction with any given other person, unless presented with a reason to. (If we could agree that "interaction" is anything that takes a standard action, I'm thinking our lives would be a whole mess easier)

The primary things that I would point out about Forgotten Realms is that the world predates modern media and advertising, making the development of cognitive devices to block out the rest of the world are unlikely at best. (I don't have a citation handy, but I've a degree in Ed Psyche -- my word there is worth something!)

Similarly, the population densities in Forgotten Realms don't even begin to compare to the population densities in even the suburbs of America. I'm not going to say that everyone is going to look hard at an unfamiliar face in a tavern on account of that; it's simply not true. However, I do think that substantially more people are going to look, and look for detail, than we would expect in our society (where we tend to underestimate how much people pay attention to others.) I think this adds up to an extreme statistical likelihood that any given illusion is going to be discovered in a crowded place.

Take, for example, the Lonesome Tankard. It's the less-trashy of the taverns in Eveningstar, and pretty much fits the cliche that is the Forgotten Realms drinking hole. There is a bartender, two waitresses, and about twenty patrons in a given evening. (I think NC has fewer actually spawning, but the fellows around the village are supposed to habitually go there to wet their whistles in the evenings.) Figure that one of the waitresses is going to give the greeting and proper attention (interaction) and the bartender (retired adventurer and responsible for security) is going to size the new guy up (study). Of the patrons in the tavern, I'd say that pretty much everyone is going to look up, if nothing else to see if it's a friend and to muster whatever Cormyr's equivelant to the limerick is. How many look long enough to count as "interaction" (a standard action takes about 3 seconds in our game engine; obviously, facial recognition or lack thereof goes much quicker than this) will be a matter of what they see.

In this setting, chances of the illusion going undiscovered is a function of both the DC of the spell and the number of heads the illusion turns. I'm assuming one waitress and one bartender giving professional scrutiny, and taking only the commoners into account for who looks long enough to have spent a standard action.

Code: Select all

-------- 10% study --- 25% study --- 50% study --- 75% study -
DC 14 -- 11.41% ------ 3.13% ------- 0.36% ------- 0.04% -----
DC 15 -- 15.93% ------ 5.46% ------- 0.92% ------- 0.15% -----
DC 16 -- 21.66% ------ 9.14% ------- 2.17% ------- 0.51% -----
DC 17 -- 28.80% ------ 14.75% ------ 4.83% ------- 1.58% -----
DC 18 -- 37.57% ------ 23.07% ------ 10.24% ------ 4.54% -----

Frankly, even an illusionist with greater spell focus a mundane disguise who only earns as much attention as "Who's the new guy?" is looking at about a 1 in 3 chance of not being screwed in that situation. Your average level 1 arcane spellcaster has about a 1 in 10 chance, and the number gets miniscule fast as the disguise merits more attention.

[JaydeMoon]

I will concede that the chances of pulling off such a ruse will be lower in smaller towns where people are more likely to know one another...

However, an argument can be made that, ironically, the more crowded a situation, the less likely (based simply by looking at someone), it is that you'll be noticed.

By that I mean crowded city streets, crowded city taverns, etc.

Being 'noticed' by twenty regulars in a small town bar when you're a stranger is higher than being noticed when you're just another beggar/drunk on the docks in Selgaunt. Even with more people around, less of them care.

But your table is good. I like your table. Unfortunately it's so specific

Otherwise I'd just use THAT.

[Zelknolf]

Here's the thing: that 10% column is looking at four people with abolute shit for will saves. That's two commoners (+0 will) one waitress (+1 will) and one bartender (+4 will... if he's wearing his ring of resistance). If, in crowded city streets, you don't think that any given individual wouldn't be observed for more than three seconds by four people (who, mind you, don't have the cognitive processes to block out the world like we do.) I guess you can try for that argument; I think it's unreasonable.

Throw someone with a good will save into the mix (experts, aristocrats, and adepts, for example, are +2 will at level 1, and we're familiar with saves on people with PC levels) and those numbers drop even faster. Build some guards with smart gear (ring of will +1 is 250 gold, cheaper than a masterwork weapon, and probably prudent gear for the most-often-charmed NPCs in the game) and it messes stuff up more, but not as much as with people who don't have all 10s for ability scores. Frankly, that first column is what happens when you're being really nice to the PCs.

[JaydeMoon]

When it's overly crowded, even guards don't have the luxury of giving EVERYONE a three-four second gaze when they're worried something bad will happen. They give you a quick glance, less than a second, and unless there is something about you, they move on.

I mean, really, three to four seconds is a LOT of time when you're scanning your surroundings. A LOT. Next time you walk through the mall, try looking at everyone you can and count:

1 mississippi
2 mississippi
3 mississippi.

Then try to estimate howmany people you didn't get to look at at ALL because you spent so much time on the ones you DID look at.

[Zelknolf]

Again, probability. Everyone is interesting enough to look that long to someone and you're much more likely to find those people when there's a hundred other people about. It doesn't take a lot of will saves to make an illusion impractical, as my nice lil' table demonstrates.

[JaydeMoon]

Is is a rather nice table.

[Magonushi]

I would tend to think that unless a person already has a reason to be primarily looking at or interacting with the illusion, then they don't get a will save. In fantasy settings magical disguises seem to exist to pass through crowds without a trace, but fail under close, personal inspection usually involving high levels of insight, not simply observation.

The way you put it Zel is that disguise self is only intended to work in small groups (4-5) because the law of probability would drive a crowd to quickly realize the bluff. However in situations where only 4-5 people are present, close observation of the other parties is commonplace, which increases the chance those observers have at making their saves due to modifiers.

In short I can't think of a circumstance where your version wouldn't lead to this genre of spells being completely useless.

Furthermore it should be noted that a level 2 illusion spell can render the user completely invisible without a chance to save to detect. Comparatively I would think changing the appearance of something would be much easier to pull off.

[ThinkTank]

*skips reading blather*

You get saves vs an illusion spell if it says you do in the spell boxtext, the only NPCs that get to do so are the ones the DM thinks are relivant. Every mook sitting drinking their brains to mush in your local dive dont count a relivant people, hell you dont even get XP for killing them; eg: they are furniture. Furniture doesnt give a damn about you or your spells unless you start throwing fireballs around and screaming bloody murder.

[JaydeMoon]

*takes a seat on a nice, comfy, reclining NPC*