How do we feel about playing and DMing in ALFA?

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:23 pm

Personally, I think lvl1 sucks. I tried to wedge a lvl2 start into the ECL discussion (based on starting xp) to no avail.

Magonushi · Post by **Magonushi** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:33 pm

I'm right with you Fluff.

I wonder how many people, who support level one starts, have actually had to role play their barbarian warrior being decapitated by a lone chicken.

[EDIT] And Helos the main thing I think ALFA lacked were Objects, NPCs and Monsters that didn't fight back. If a human is gonna go after a rabbit, more than likely the furry bastard is gonna whip out his Nikes not his machete. Likewise I don't see why hitting a practice dummy with an arrow shouldn't net a low level character at least a little bit of XP. Unfortunately I've never seen something like that.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:36 pm

you're probably right Mag...

I do support lvl 1....and I've never bitten the dust at lvl 1. (Gods knows how many PC's I've gone through though....I suppose it is only a matter of time..)

Maybe I would have a different opinion had I met a death by kitty?

FanaticusIncendi · Post by **FanaticusIncendi** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:20 am

I've never met death at lvl 1, but I also don't really "adventure" at level 1. I agree with the stupidity of death by bunnies and chickens. It's just ridiculous, and I would wholly support level 2 start. Even at level 2 tho, I bet a bunny could pwn a mage.

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:30 am

A barbarian warrior, or any other character at level 1, was at some point in their life vulnerable, ignorant, untrained, naive, hesitant, etc., etc. I like to think that those first couple levels are where characters are to be roleplayed having those unflattering aspects. It's so rewarding to see level-young characters overcome fears, weaknesses, flaws, and so forth. The stat-weakness of that first level or two allows our roleplay to define our character rather than the build's strengths.

And characters dying to rabbits and chickens is OOC and should not serve as an arguement for skipping level 1. Contact a DM if such nonsense happens in game.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:32 am

Vaelahr, such a policy makes far too much sense to be employed in ALFA. We shan't do it, and if you don't like it, you can take a vote.

Then, you can shove that vote up your ass!

Take that!!!

Stupid sense-makers. We hates em.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:58 am

First level is supposed to represent the culmination of years of training, particularly for spellcasting classes. The apprentice mage, the religious acyolyte, these individuals are not supposed to be 12 years old. Having overcome their apprentice years, they are now ready to begin adventuring as professionals within their discipline. First level PC's are not commoners, they are already a cut above the rest.

But that's a tough sell without a DM to oversee them and make sure their challenges are appropriate. In a fully DM'ed environment, 1st level works just fine. In an automated environment, 1st level tends to be one mistake away from a reroll. Any mistake. I nearly lost my first PC in ALFA within 10 seconds of loading into my starting server, literally just a few steps off the boat. I hadn't had time to get starting equipment or anything.

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:47 am

as to when you get into the RP of your character, that's going to happen whenever you start playing it whether its at lvl 1 or 5 or 15. You don't RP growing up from the time you started to walk, you have to pick someplace to pick up, and saying that has to happen at lvl 1 is a little arbitrary, which means it should be a non-issue - the argument doesn't support starting at any particular level.

the real meat is that level 1 has to be baby-sat. I've never had a lvl1 die because I've generally been able to benefit from the kind baby-sitting of DMs. You can't go off by yourself, combat in alfa or even nwn in general is totally unforgiving. It can be hard to go with a party, because unless its full of noobs you are in a situation where even an accidental dose of bad breath can spell the end. Partying with a level 1 always ends up feeling contrived because its rare there isn't at least a little metagaming over it by everyone involved. If we wanted to dedicate time and attention to babysitting and make sure every new PC gets enough then sure, no big deal, but that's not the way it happens.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:23 am

Level 2 is the new level 1!!!

Zelknolf · Post by **Zelknolf** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:37 am

If a level 1 wants to go off adventuring, sure, I'd say that said level 1 needs some babysitting. I would point out that a level 1, having just finished an apprenticeship, isn't (both in IC logic and in analysis of stats) ready for the exotic happenings of an adventurer's life. We even see this in common storytelling threads within the High Fantasy genre (with the exception of good ol' Tolkien, who totally doesn't mind dropping an orc horde on those poor new protagonists). Stout warriors spend some time working for the guard first, and then find a hook that pulls them to adventure. Scholars and mages take to studying on their own until a mishap makes them move, or they run out of funds and need to scrap something together. (Hell, clerks in general are the niche that level 1 wizards and clerics would fill.)

I would say that this phase adds quite a bit to the personality and presentation of a character. Maybe your character didn't get a nice "I'm a level 1 and need practice with my art!" job, and she/he got lucky. I know my current character's first XP was from a piddily Zhent archer, and it happened go go well because it was low enough level to get pimpslapped by a sleep spell and a long sword. I think that adds a lot to my character, and it seems more noticeable when contrasted with people who got their first level scouting and patrolling for Ricpeth on Shadowdale. My character, by contrast, looks foolhardy and lucky while theirs look trained and sensible.

The contrast would exist with any starting level, I'm sure, and everyone would still get to be and have character foils, but I think the amount of contrast would be blunted as the starting level got higher, and spanking new PCs were more prepared for high adventure.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:10 am

Zel wrote:I would point out that a level 1, having just finished an apprenticeship, isn't (both in IC logic and in analysis of stats) ready for the exotic happenings of an adventurer's life.

According to the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide, a PC is ready to go off adventuring at level 1, but of course that assumes a DM'ed campaign tailored to level 1 PC's. Adventuring at level 1 also fits with most fantasy novels I've read, including Raymond Feist's Magician Apprentice.

I remember under the AD&D rules there was a zero level mod that allowed you to play a pre-adventuring PC, and your choices in the mod were supposed to guide you into choosing your class. But outside of that example, a level 1 PC is assumed by the rules to be a trained professional, able to use martial weapons or even cast spells, abilities that are significantly beyond the average person walking down the street. The problems with 1st level in a PW are obvious, a tendency to solo and a lack of properly balanced encounters for level 1 PC's, especially soloing level 1 PC's, hence the tendency for many PW's to put in a bunch of FedEx quests to get to level 2. Personally, I'd rather skip the OOC FedEx quests or patrol quests and just start at a level that is survivable on the PW, whether that be level 2 or level 4 or level 6 for that matter. I can rp as much backstory as necessary to get there, I'm that good.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:26 am

I'd like to point out that a private in the Army fresh out of basic is also a 'trained professional', but that by no means says that they are ready to go patrolling on their own, facing whatever.

Often a group of them band together with a 'babysitter' (Cpls, Sgts, and SSGs).

And the schtuff that happens to them on that first patrol could, as Zelk points out, totally change their outlook on the rest of the time they spend runnin' around with their guns and schtuff.

The worst, though, is when soldiers are killed by Iraqi chickens and Afghani rats. It happens pretty frequently across the ocean.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:08 am

Let me reaffirm Jayde....I have personally seen the rats employed by the Taliban in Afghanistan...and they can and will do away with a level one mage in a heartbeat.

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:16 am

/imo

The DnD system was made for dungeon crawling games...levels explained your experience doing just that: dungeoin crawl or bashing monsters (with sparkles or swords). There was no "real life" cohesion with the stats, it was just numbers without any other purpose than a "Balanced fighting system".

Level 1 represents the first time you go into a dungeon...that's it. The system doesn't relfect the fact that the character is probably 26 years old (or even more), grew somewhere and has a culture. Nope, it's just -stats- for fighting your way down to the big lvl 1 boss. When you're lvl 2, you can attempt lvl 2 dungeons.

I don't think the system was ever intended to be used for what we do in ALFA (intense, non-combat social roleplay), in fact in most of my time here, there were -extremely- few rolls.

Zelknolf · Post by **Zelknolf** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:48 am

Mulu wrote:Personally, I'd rather skip the OOC FedEx quests or patrol quests and just start at a level that is survivable on the PW, whether that be level 2 or level 4 or level 6 for that matter. I can rp as much backstory as necessary to get there, I'm that good.

And you can still RP as much back story as you'd like at level 1, if that's your fancy. Still, the distinctions in character that we gain from how exactly your PC managed to survive level one are much more palpable when they are actually played, which was the extent of my point.

Sourvarine wrote:The DnD system was made for dungeon crawling games
...
I don't think the system was ever intended to be used for what we do in ALFA (intense, non-combat social roleplay), in fact in most of my time here, there were -extremely- few rolls.

This is entirely untrue. The original DnD system was an evolution from Chainmail - a medieval wargame - and Gary Gygax's fantasy rules supplements to it. The initial intention of the DnD system was to add personality and depth to the heroes of a fantasy battlefield, with whom Gygax's audience were quite enamored. DnD exists quite specifically so that the protagonists aren't just stats slaughtering monsters in the most tactically sound way imagineable. I won't deny that people play - and often have quite a bit of fun - that way, but claiming that such is why the system was made is downright erroneous.

Similarly, given the lengths that the publishers of Dungeons and Dragons go to discuss, explain, and encourage role playing, (one need only compare the quantities of rules information to the quantities of role playing information, especially with TSR publications, to see the pattern) I would say that we're well within the realm of their expectations. We have infrequent rolls because our characters don't often do things that push the envelope of their capacities to act, which is indeed the only time that one should roll. (Even 2nd edition warned of DMs asking for stupid rolls. No one rolls a natural 1 to tie their shoes, I believe was the example.)