Phoenix Launched

[Mulu]

Well, storms happen on every planetary body with an atmosphere that we've observed.

You have to remember that the Universe is an estimated 13.5 billion years old. Our solar system has only been around for less than half that time, with life on Earth first occuring roughly 4.8 billion years ago. Galaxies are known to have existed a mere 600 million years after the Big Bang, so there could be life out there that has had an additional say 9 billion years in which to evolve....

Space whales indeed.

[NickD]

You have to remember that the Universe is an estimated 13.5 billion years old. Our solar system has only been around for less than half that time, with life on Earth first occuring roughly 4.8 billion years ago. Galaxies are known to have existed a mere 600 million years after the Big Bang, so there could be life out there that has had an additional say 9 billion years in which to evolve....

Which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that if there was life out there more intelligent than us, or ever was, there would be some evidence of them out there due to their more than likely proliferation, given the millions or billions of years more than us they have existed.

I've never said at any point that life does not exist on other planets, just saying that it's unlikely to be anywhere near as intelligent as us or right next door.

[paazin]

You have to remember that the Universe is an estimated 13.5 billion years old. Our solar system has only been around for less than half that time, with life on Earth first occuring roughly 4.8 billion years ago. Galaxies are known to have existed a mere 600 million years after the Big Bang, so there could be life out there that has had an additional say 9 billion years in which to evolve....

Which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that if there was life out there more intelligent than us, or ever was, there would be some evidence of them out there due to their more than likely proliferation, given the millions or billions of years more than us they have existed.

Who says there isn't?

[NickD]

Who says there isn't?

It's possible, of course, and we just haven't seen it yet, but I think it would be more obvious than it is, given the amount of time they've had to turn the universe into one big colony.

Unless, of course, black holes are really alien planets hidden from view and not actually black holes as we "know" them to be. But they're not. Black holes are really the giant space whales that eat dying stars whose farts create new stars and droppings are planets.

[Grand Fromage]

Yes, emergent processes happen everywhere. Hurricanes and other storms are a good example.

Basic scientific principles always apply universally.

Hurricanes and storms happen on Earth. Makes them irrelevant.

uh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_red_spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_pattern_on_Jupiter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dark_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_cyclones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oval_BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Dark_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Mars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn#Cloud_layers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune#We ... etic_field

Which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that if there was life out there more intelligent than us, or ever was, there would be some evidence of them out there due to their more than likely proliferation, given the millions or billions of years more than us they have existed.

I don't think you understand how big space is. The only reasonable way to detect intelligent aliens would be EM signals, and that particular survey, while ongoing, has scanned only an infinitesimal bit of our own galaxy.

There could be one hundred billion intelligent civilizations in the universe and that would still be only one per galaxy, if evenly distributed. We would have no idea they are there.

[NickD]

uh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_red_spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_pattern_on_Jupiter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dark_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_cyclones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oval_BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Dark_Spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Mars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn#Cloud_layers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune#We ... etic_field

Evidence they're affected by emergence, pls.

I don't think you understand how big space is. The only reasonable way to detect intelligent aliens would be EM signals, and that particular survey, while ongoing, has scanned only an infinitesimal bit of our own galaxy.

There could be one hundred billion intelligent civilizations in the universe and that would still be only one per galaxy, if evenly distributed. We would have no idea they are there.

Assuming that even in a billion years they could never reach us, that makes their existance without meaning. In much the same way that time started with the big bang, not because there was definitely nothing before that, but because we can't measure what happened before it. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, they don't exist.

[Grand Fromage]

Evidence they're affected by emergence, pls.

I'll take my lesson from the religion threads and not bother--if you still can't figure it out I'll find something better to do with my time.

I will leave you with a hint though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

[Mulu]

First Cipher becomes a liberal, then Nick turns into Zak! What's going on here?

Oh, and our galaxy could potentially be crawling with civilizations without our knowledge. Unless and until they decide to visit, or we manage to intercept a signal, or we develop a *lot* more technology, they'd be invisible to us due to the distances involved, and that's within our own galaxy.

Given the vastness of space and time, I sure hope others are out there enjoying it.

[hollyfant]

An interesting perspective on the Fermi paradox can be gained by flipping the situation around: is there life on Earth? You can't see any signs of civilization beyond the moon's orbit, and our oldest transmissions that can be reliably received outside the solar system are about 50 years old.

So to anyone outside a 50ly radius we're not here, and within that limit we're mostly known as providers of early American soap operas...

[Grand Fromage]

Hitler came before the soap operas at least.

It is always amazing to me that even though there are six billion of us, massive cities everywhere... you can't see any evidence of us at all beyond a couple hundred miles out. At least during the day; at night you can see city lights, but still. You wouldn't think a picture of Japan would ever look absolutely pristine and untouched.

[NickD]

I'll take my lesson from the religion threads and not bother--if you still can't figure it out I'll find something better to do with my time.

I will leave you with a hint though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

Again, a science developed on Earth. There's nothing to say it applies outside our own unique parameters.

I do get it. This is your religion. Proof that life exists on another planet would be like angels descending from heaven for you. I can hardly blame you, living in a country where the president would happily have "intelligent design" taught in schools rather than evolution. Arguing that life must exist on other planets and it can be discovered in your life time and your refusal to believe that it could be otherwise is an indication of your strength of faith.

Just imagine what would happen if we found humans on other planets with the same religious beliefs! What would you do then?

[paazin]

[Mulu]

Again, a science developed on Earth. There's nothing to say it applies outside our own unique parameters.

I know you're just being cute, but in fact using spectrometry we can discern that hydrogen and oxygen make water on distant planets too, and can measure gravity and mass, orbital relationships, etc. We may not be able to detect life outside our solar system (or even right now outside our planet), but we can certainly detect that universal laws are indeed universal, being able with telescopes to look across the vast distances and back through time to observe stellar phenomenon.

[Souvarine]

Whatever we know now may be challenged at any time. Even untouchables like newton may one day have flaws uncovered. Observation helps to corroborate theories, but sometimes may prove it wrong too...and that's a good thing, because it prevents science from being a religion.

We do have some hints and clues on how things works though, thanks to observation (and theories that allow to interpret it) as mulu said. The chemical components are pretty much nailed down...but we still discover (and will) elements almost each year. As we slowly expand our influence in the solar system, we'll get a better understanding on how we came to be...which is a good start.

[NickD]

I know you're just being cute, but in fact using spectrometry we can discern that hydrogen and oxygen make water on distant planets too, and can measure gravity and mass, orbital relationships, etc. We may not be able to detect life outside our solar system (or even right now outside our planet), but we can certainly detect that universal laws are indeed universal, being able with telescopes to look across the vast distances and back through time to observe stellar phenomenon.

I'm not just being cute. You (and Grand Fromage) are just speaking in absolutes about a subject that is constantly changing. Scientific knowledge now is very different than it was 500, 1000, 2000 years ago. And it is arrogant and short sighted to think that we are now at the pinnacle of our understanding of everything. What we "know" now, we may "know" to be false in another 500 years time. Again, by continuing to say "This is how it is" and not "This is how we believe it to be", you are being religious in your beliefs.