Armenian genocide

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:37 am

No, you are simply not understanding the issue. The dispute is not about whether people died and saying so "on paper", but whether the killings were an intentional, systematic attempt to destroy an entire race. Now, it may not matter to you whether the US acknowledges it as such, but it sure as hell matters to the survivors and their descendants, many of whom live in America as naturalized citizens. This isn't just *your* country, you know.

And speaking of your tax dollars, what really adds insult to injury is the fact that the United States funnels BILLIONS (yes with a B) of dollars of foreign aid to Turkey.

Germany at least took responsibility for the Jewish Holocaust and tried to right the wrongs of their predecessors. Turkey simply wants to close the book on history and pretend it never happened. If you were of Armenian descent, I think you'd be lying if you said that wouldn't upset you.

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:01 am

Do you think it matters to the dead that it was a attempt to wipe them all out or just to kill the ones in turkey.But we are not talking about today's turks but a couple of generations ago.
And as someone who has Cherokee, Osage, and Black Foot in me i can Honestly say it does not matter to me about part of my family tree nearly wiped out by the country i am living in. It is in the past. What matters is that we continue forward and not dwell on who done what to whom.(Granted history should tell the truth about the horrible deeds so those horrible paths are not crossed again.)
Every world power and those who had power, at one time or another has oppressed, killed, or tried to suppress other humans who are different.
And it IS MY COUNTRY. *grins* I just let the rest of you stay here.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:57 am

I'll talk with my Armenian neighbors next time I'm back in Montreal. I had a long discussion with their father before he passed away years ago and he told me about how he was the only member of his family to survive the forced marches and concentration camps. 17 members of his family died, including his parents and all his brothers and sisters.

Problem is, the Turks will never admit to what they did, same with the Japanese and their atrocities against most of Asia, China especially during WW II. Both have rewritten their history books to hide it.

Bloody shameful.

Kate

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:02 pm

The hard, ugly political truth is that the US needs Turkey as an ally and we are not going to push them on it (the appointment of the Armenian ambassador is just moronic though). It’s the same reason no one is going to press Putin over what happened in the Ukraine under Stalin, it’s the same reason that China’s actions in Tibet are largely ignored, and its the same reason no one is ever going to force the US/Canada/Mexico to formally apologize for what happened to the Native Americans.

Of course politics is also one of the reasons the EU is pushing Turkey so hard on the issue, many don’t want them to join and forcing the Turks to admit what they have done is a good way of getting them to balk. Now not to justify what the Turks are doing, it is reprehensible, but politically speaking they are being singled out by the EU in that as far as I know none of the other member states have been required to officially repudiate and admit any genocides or crimes against humanity in their pasts. That is to say that Spain was not required to admit what happened in the Americas nor was the UK required to take the blame for The Irish Famine or the fate of the aborigines of Australia (the genocide took place largely before Australian independence).

The issue is the truncated definition of genocide that is currently in legal usage, cut the huge exception that artificially removes the mass killings of ethnic groups if a political or social excuse can be conjured up, and such hair splitting definitions would no longer be viable.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:31 pm

ç i p h é r wrote:No, you are simply not understanding the issue. The dispute is not about whether people died and saying so "on paper", but whether the killings were an intentional, systematic attempt to destroy an entire race. Now, it may not matter to you whether the US acknowledges it as such, but it sure as hell matters to the survivors and their descendants, many of whom live in America as naturalized citizens. This isn't just *your* country, you know. And speaking of your tax dollars, what really adds insult to injury is the fact that the United States funnels BILLIONS (yes with a B) of dollars of foreign aid to Turkey.

Germany at least took responsibility for the Jewish Holocaust and tried to right the wrongs of their predecessors. Turkey simply wants to close the book on history and pretend it never happened. If you were of Armenian descent, I think you'd be lying if you said that wouldn't upset you.

Holy shat, Cipher became a liberal!

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:43 pm

Or maybe he's Armenian?

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:18 am

Mulu wrote:Holy shat, Cipher became a liberal!

I've succumb to your tireless rantings on the Off Topics....

Jeppan · Post by **Jeppan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:03 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:The hard, ugly political truth is that the US needs Turkey as an ally and we are not going to push them on it (the appointment of the Armenian ambassador is just moronic though). It’s the same reason no one is going to press Putin over what happened in the Ukraine under Stalin, it’s the same reason that China’s actions in Tibet are largely ignored, and its the same reason no one is ever going to force the US/Canada/Mexico to formally apologize for what happened to the Native Americans.

Of course politics is also one of the reasons the EU is pushing Turkey so hard on the issue, many don’t want them to join and forcing the Turks to admit what they have done is a good way of getting them to balk. Now not to justify what the Turks are doing, it is reprehensible, but politically speaking they are being singled out by the EU in that as far as I know none of the other member states have been required to officially repudiate and admit any genocides or crimes against humanity in their pasts. That is to say that Spain was not required to admit what happened in the Americas nor was the UK required to take the blame for The Irish Famine or the fate of the aborigines of Australia (the genocide took place largely before Australian independence).

The issue is the truncated definition of genocide that is currently in legal usage, cut the huge exception that artificially removes the mass killings of ethnic groups if a political or social excuse can be conjured up, and such hair splitting definitions would no longer be viable.

Very interesting thoughts!

Spain has not acknowledged their atrocities in the americas? Is it something that the spanish are trying to deny? Likewise for the british, are they not talking about how it went down?

It is obvious some EU-countries are using this to keep Turkey out of the union as it would hurt their agricultural subsidies too much. Very shortsigthed in mind.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:35 pm

Well Tony Blair actually did apologize for the actions of the British Government during the famine but that was in 1997 and it didn't come under any sort of international pressure or have anything to do with their membership in the EU (it was important however in bolstering Irish support for his efforts in Northern Ireland).

To a large extent it falls in the wording of a nation's statements, few nations will deny the facts but most will stop short of actually calling an event a genocide, its very much a game of semantics. The language of international politics is very different from the language the rest of the world uses.

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:07 pm

There have been many pictures and documents relating the armenian genocide period. The only problem is that the Turkish government deny it to this day.

It's no faerie tale, but deliberate extermination of a culture is certainly not a rare occurence in history...even in the americas.

Castano · Post by **Castano** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:17 am

If you read your ottoman history, they for centuries were very nervous about minorities living in border regions...to the point where they would forcibly uproot and move entire populations away from the border (for example in macedonia/northern greece.

The armenian genocide did occur, was motivated by a suspicion that the Armenians were supporting the Russians in WWI (and if they were I could hardly blame them after centuries of horrid treatment by the Turks).

I know that they forced entire villages out into the mountains where they died of exposure. The genocide was documented by 2 american diplomats traveling in the region at the time. the lack of international response to the massacre was cited by hitler and the nazis as a green light for their own plans against the Jews and Romani (aka Gypsies) years later.

And Storm, sadly our USA does not recognize the Armenian genocide because we need Turkey as an ally in the mideast, and the Turks have made non-recognition conditional on them helping us. Israel also does not recognize it for the same reasons. (though given their lack of help in Iraq I question whether this bargain with them is worth it..given that we are essentially denying a prove fact (also known as lieing) and getting precious little in return.

BTW - it is totally pointless to argue these points with the nationalist Turks...they never admit to any mistakes ever, the most you will get is "unfortunate things happened, but we never intended it - it was an accident"

There are of course people in Turkey who do admit it - mostly academics and the educated -- often times at great risk.

If you really want to piss off your new debate buddy off - ask him about the varlek vargasi - the special WWII tax (100+% of your assessed assets) levied on non-Muslims and the labor camps for those who could not pay. My Gramps, having an Italian passport, narrowly avoided the labor camps. His friends were not so lucky.

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:37 am

By the same token, if you want to set off quite a few Merkans, use the words "Indians" and "genocide" in the same sentence. Those discussions are always fun.

Jeppan · Post by **Jeppan** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:05 am

Castano wrote:the lack of international response to the massacre was cited by hitler and the nazis as a green light for their own plans against the Jews and Romani (aka Gypsies) years later.

....

If you really want to piss off your new debate buddy off - ask him about the varlek vargasi - the special WWII tax (100+% of your assessed assets) levied on non-Muslims and the labor camps for those who could not pay. My Gramps, having an Italian passport, narrowly avoided the labor camps. His friends were not so lucky.

I heard of this quote, but only in the "armenian context", do you have any sources on where this was said and where one could verify that?

....

Intresting post Castano, I will certainly ask him about those taxes to see if he knows about it (he was born here in Sweden, his parents came here for work in the sixties).

Castano · Post by **Castano** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:21 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

this is well cited...so you can look up the sources and decide if they are biased or not. the New York Times reported extensively on the Armenian Genocide, as did German military officers and construction engineers in the area (the germans were allies w. the Turks and would have had no reason (and supposedly violated orders) to report the war crimes.

Joos · Post by **Joos** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:53 am

Joos: Wikipedia is not a good source unfortunatly

I don't undertand why Wiki would be a bad source in this instance. Every fact posted in the article has a referenced source linked to it for verification. Moreover, the article has been locked, so it can't be modfied by just anyone anymore so there is really no reason to doubt the facts, unless the reference itself is dodgy.

If you scrutinize the sources, they seem to come from reliable sources, souch as NY Times, West German foreign office, memoires of missionairies and eyewitnesses etc.

You could even look up the references quoted if you think they have been misinterpreted in the article. Anyway, I am sure you will make a spectacular argument with your friend! It's a shame I will miss it!