Immigration.....

[Mulu]

The notion that illegal immigrants is at the expense of the nation, or even workers at large, is somewhat thin. Only a very small portion of the US labor force is directly impacted in a negative way because the majority of illegals do work that simply wouldn't be done by domestics, such as picking fruit.

Well, that's a fallacy. Americans would gladly pick fruit if it paid a liveable wage. For that matter, I pick my own fruit from local farms....

The economics argument has long been, "cheaper goods mean a better lifestyle," but if it comes at the expense of earnings, and other costs like environmental damage and supporting despotic, exploitative and terrorist regimes, it's not really a gain.

[Valdimir]

Well, that's a fallacy. Americans would gladly pick fruit if it paid a liveable wage. For that matter, I pick my own fruit from local farms.....

I take it from your excerpt you don't equate picking a bushel of strawberries for your personal consumption to working the field for ten hours a day. I think Fluff's point is not that picking fruit is morally beneath most Americans, just that the supply of labor is bigger than the demand, thus driving down the wages. So yes, if it paid $25 an hour, you would probably get some takers. It is just not going to happen. Hell, I would be a professional DM if there was a market for it, but alas...

The economics argument has long been, "cheaper goods mean a better lifestyle," but if it comes at the expense of earnings, and other costs like environmental damage and supporting despotic, exploitative and terrorist regimes, it's not really a gain.

At this point, the definitions of gain and loss become fuzzy because we are adding personal values to the equation. As I stated before, I don't feel a need to pay more so someone else can earn more. The environmentalist movement has lost all credibility with me. I can even live with despotic and exploitative regimes, just not terrorist. By my math, 'cheaper goods providing a better lifestyle' still holds water.

[Veilan]

More regulation? Gah! You can see what that has done for French and German economies...

Yeah man, we're practically starving over here .

[Mulu]

Alright, I'll throw in as extra costs factors that, "greatly increase crime and drug-use, teen pregnancy, child poverty, and developmental disorders (largely due to drug use)."

Society is a seamless web. If you pull on one strand you effect all others, so pursuing corporate profits at the expense of social justice and morals creates societal decline. And what ever happened to greed and gluttony being deadly sins?

[mxlm]

How dare you suggest that the endemic ghettos of our nation's cities (or is it more suburbia these days?) are evidence that the model might--just might--need to be revisited?

Go back to Eurofagville, you terrorist-lover.

(No, Valdimir, I'm not making fun of you. Just thought I should make that clear).

[Valdimir]

This speech should sum up my position nicely...

[Mulu]

And here I thought it was the monopolists and robber barons mentioned in that scene that helped to contribute to the Great Depression....