Amnesty attacks US over abuses

[Rotku]

"I myself am human and free only to the extent that I acknowledge the humanity and liberty of all my fellows... I am properly free when all the men and women about me are equally free. Far from being a limitation or a denial of my liberty, the liberty of another is its necessary condition and confirmation." ~ Mikhail Bakunin

[Nekulor]

Kate made all the points I was going to make. However, I'm sure at least one will not be understood, so I'll make it plain.

Detainees are mostly innocent people. This is how it works: A bomb goes off. Our soldiers round up any nearby Sunni males and question them using Shia translators who purposefully mistranslate their statements to make them sound guilty. Those men then get bagged and go into detention, where they are tortured until they "name names" of people in the insurgency. Those names might be personal enemies, or simply acquaintences, but they typically aren't insurgents. Those people get rounded up and tortured until *they* "name names," and the process continues.

Every once in a while they actually bag an insurgent, though even then it's usually just some expendable unemployed guy working as a fighter for the insurgency to try to feed his family (unemployment is at 60% and the insurgency is one of the few employers of Sunni in Iraq), but in the meantime they are detaining and torturing *thousands* of innocent civilians. The situation on the ground is constantly changing, making any operational intel a detainee might have outdated within weeks, yet we detain and question them for years. We have over 10,000 people in detention in Bagdhad, including women and children. And for some strange reason, despite these brilliant tactics, the insurgency only grows worse, and more popular among Iraqi civilians.

Torture doesn't work, and it's illegal. Worse still is the PR blowback from using it. For some reason, most of the rest of the world sees the US as being a lot more evil than they used to. Funny that.

Then, if this is actually the case, the system for rounding up captives needs to be rethought and reworked so we actually round up the people responsible and not random suni guys on the street.

[Swift]

4.) Ultimately, I do not care about the well being of foreign insurgents. They give me no reason to care about them. They hate me, they want me dead, and they will blow themselves up to see that happen. They spit on my nation's flag, they burn my nation's flag, and I've had it up to here with international peace organizations telling us we need to play nice with these people! They throw Geneva in our faces weekly, but they don't do it to other nations.

Thats fine. I doubt many people care for the welfare of proven insurgents either. The difference with you is, you do not care for them from the moment they have been arrested and the US proclaims they have caught an insurgent, without waiting to find out whether they are actually insurgents, or innocents caught in the crossfire, and you also do not care what measures are taken to find out if they are an insurgent or not.

[MorbidKate]

Then, if this is actually the case, the system for rounding up captives needs to be rethought and reworked so we actually round up the people responsible and not random suni guys on the street.

If only it were that easy. You see, the US farms out a lot of the responsibility in gathering up "insurgents" to the unprepared, barely trained, corrupt and infiltrated Iraqi, Afghan and Pakistani security forces, warlords with regional power, clerics with suspect allegiances and other trustworthy types with agendas of their own. Groups are also paid for handing over "insurgents" which creates a cash market that encourages the snatching darn near anyone and proclaiming them "insurgents". Good luck trying to clear your name in a secret prison in Eastern Europe or Gitmo.

From BusinessWeek:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... 8_5596.htm

"Most disturbing, in the last half of 2004 Iraqi police have killed political opponents, falsely arrested people to extort money, and systematically raped and tortured female prisoners, according to a February, 2005, State Dept. report on Iraq's human rights record. In one of the worst examples, police in Basra reported last December that officers in the Internal Affairs Unit were involved in the slaughter of 10 Baath Party members. Iraq's Human Rights Minister, Bakhtiar Amin, says it will be hard to teach democratic policing because torture and other human rights abuses were "learned behavior."

From the Telegraph 2 years ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html

"Iraqis, rather than foreign fighters, now form the vast majority of the insurgents who are waging a ferocious guerrilla war against United States forces in Sunni western Iraq, American commanders have revealed."

Most Iraqi historians will tell you that once the US pulls out of Iraq, the marriage of convenience with foreign insurgents will quickly end with the foreigners being forced out of the country or killed off. Until then, they act like US "Advisors" did in Afghanistan against the Russians back in the 80s.

The blowback from this war of choice against Iraq was never taken into account by the PNAC who planned this war a decade ago. 911 was just the excuse to finally capitalize on the US being the lone superpower after Russia collapsed:

http://www.newamericancentury.org

Shame this mess had nothing to do with terrorism at the time.

Kate

[Nekulor]

Then, if this is actually the case, the system for rounding up captives needs to be rethought and reworked so we actually round up the people responsible and not random suni guys on the street.

If only it were that easy. You see, the US farms out a lot of the responsibility in gathering up "insurgents" to the unprepared, barely trained, corrupt and infiltrated Iraqi, Afghan and Pakistani security forces, warlords with regional power, clerics with suspect allegiances and other trustworthy types with agendas of their own. Groups are also paid for handing over "insurgents" which creates a cash market that encourages the snatching darn near anyone and proclaiming them "insurgents". Good luck trying to clear your name in a secret prison in Eastern Europe or Gitmo.

From BusinessWeek:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... 8_5596.htm

"Most disturbing, in the last half of 2004 Iraqi police have killed political opponents, falsely arrested people to extort money, and systematically raped and tortured female prisoners, according to a February, 2005, State Dept. report on Iraq's human rights record. In one of the worst examples, police in Basra reported last December that officers in the Internal Affairs Unit were involved in the slaughter of 10 Baath Party members. Iraq's Human Rights Minister, Bakhtiar Amin, says it will be hard to teach democratic policing because torture and other human rights abuses were "learned behavior."

From the Telegraph 2 years ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html

"Iraqis, rather than foreign fighters, now form the vast majority of the insurgents who are waging a ferocious guerrilla war against United States forces in Sunni western Iraq, American commanders have revealed."

Most Iraqi historians will tell you that once the US pulls out of Iraq, the marriage of convenience with foreign insurgents will quickly end with the foreigners being forced out of the country or killed off. Until then, they act like US "Advisors" did in Afghanistan against the Russians back in the 80s.

The blowback from this war of choice against Iraq was never taken into account by the PNAC who planned this war a decade ago. 911 was just the excuse to finally capitalize on the US being the lone superpower after Russia collapsed:

http://www.newamericancentury.org

Shame this mess had nothing to do with terrorism at the time.

Kate

Well dammit, if I'd known we were farming out our responsibilities as a peace keeping force I would have stated my earlier posts differently.

[Mulu]

And the light turns on....

Though you can't blame it all on farming out responsibilities. Our own forces do plenty of harm too, as a result of poor policy choices and greenlighting illegal behavior.

[Nekulor]

Most of those policy decisions came from when Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense. He botched everything up so bad that even Sherlock Holmes would have problems figuring it all out.

[MorbidKate]

Well dammit, if I'd known we were farming out our responsibilities as a peace keeping force I would have stated my earlier posts differently.

Umm, you mean peace making, yes? Of course others see it as occupation but whatever

In fact, this war in Iraq is the most "farmed out" war is US history. Billions are being spent on military "contractors" aka Mercenaries and "support" companies with massive contracts due to their close connections (board all ex Congressmen, Senators or military brass) with the US government.

The logic behind the US receiving "insurgents" from their bought off allies is that the locals know more of what's happening around them and who's doing what. In a petry dish that just fine but greed, envy, paranoia and good ol' power grabbing human nature suggests it's easily abused. Add in the fact that the US is sitting in the middle of a civl war and it's even easier to see the motivations in pointing out your opposition to the US military as "insurgents". Toss in they get paid to do so at a time of 60% unemployment and it's suddenly very likely that thousands of people in those secret prisons don't deserve to be there.

Most of those policy decisions came from when Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense. He botched everything up so bad that even Sherlock Holmes would have problems figuring it all out.

Oh no, this stuff goes way way back to when Dick Cheney was Secretary of Defense under Daddy Bush.

To quote a section from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

Foreign policy drove the Bush Presidency from its first days. In his January 20, 1989, Inaugural Address upon taking the Presidency, Bush said, "I come before you and assume the Presidency at a moment rich with promise. We live in a peaceful, prosperous time, but we can make it better. For a new breeze is blowing, and a world refreshed by freedom seems reborn; for in man's heart, if not in fact, the day of the dictator is over. The totalitarian era is passing, its old ideas blown away like leaves from an ancient, lifeless tree. A new breeze is blowing, and a nation refreshed by freedom stands ready to push on. There is new ground to be broken, and new action to be taken."

Leading up to the first Gulf War, on September 11, 1990, President Bush addressing a joint session of Congress stated: "Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective — a New World Order — can emerge: a new era"

With these words President Bush gave the order to start the military action which would later be known as the Gulf War.

If you really want to understand what happened in Iraq and why you need to start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_fo ... an_Century

When done reading the who's who list of it's members and the timeline go ahead and Google "PNAC & Iraq" for the real reasons for the invasion.

Hint: It was never about terrorism

Kate

[mxlm]

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqm ... 0-1997.htm

Why send him to wiki when the horse's mouth sees no need to shut up and hide its role?

[MorbidKate]

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqm ... 0-1997.htm

Why send him to wiki when the horse's mouth sees no need to shut up and hide its role?

Heh, because I already linked to it once on this very page

The Wiki does a pretty decent job of detailing who has been a member of this "Thinktank" though it's far from complete. Still, what names are listed is a who's who of those directly involved in every phase of the Iraqi invasion... a decade before it happened.

Kate

[sgould72]

Well dammit, if I'd known we were farming out our responsibilities as a peace keeping force I would have stated my earlier posts differently.

So...what you are saying is that you farmed out your responsibility to actually be informed about an issue before taking an extremist stance on it?

[NickD]

So...what you are saying is that you farmed out your responsibility to actually be informed about an issue before taking an extremist stance on it?

You can't blame Nekulor for that. The American education system doesn't encourage people to think for themselves, after all.

[MorbidKate]

So...what you are saying is that you farmed out your responsibility to actually be informed about an issue before taking an extremist stance on it?

You can't blame Nekulor for that. The American education system doesn't encourage people to think for themselves, after all.

It's what happens when the The O'Reilly Factor becomes the sole source of "information" for bible-thumping, card carrying NRA Republicans.

Kate

[sgould72]

It's what happens when the The O'Reilly Factor becomes the sole source of "information" for bible-thumping, card carrying NRA Republicans.

I'd laugh except that is entirely too true to be funny.

[mxlm]

Heh, because I already linked to it once on this very page

Why do you hate America?