Scripted Alignment Changes

[ballonger]

A lot of people would have a hard time trusting someone trying to bend something so obvious as that static on WD, just to get a reason to do it.

I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish by defending this type of behaviour. The static is quite clear: You're hired to round up criminals for the City Watch. If you help the City Watch do their job, which is to keep the law, you are working towards getting the city more lawful. What does that make you other than lawful? How can you even argue with that? If you kill the criminals for money you don't have to drag them all the way to the watch house and turn them in. Instead you take whatever valuables they have and sell them. If you just kill them for the heck of it or in self defense you don't even do that.

To farfetchedly bend the original intent of that static just to be able to do it is powergaming and OOC (because you're obviously after the gold and xp even though the static isn't IC for you to do).

To go and put stuff in and retrieve it from a chest on TLR is meta.

I believe I understand what your point is but the way to go about it isn't to remove the alignment shift for those that do the static in my opinion. That static should give those points. Instead there should be a wider variety of statics. And they should be IC for some and OOC for others, and to avoid abuse they shouldn't be available to those for whom they'd be OOC. Like that shady static in WD that isn't available (or wasn't) to those that weren't of the right alignment or class. I'm not really sure what limited that static. All I know is sometimes it was available and at other times it wasn't.

[ballonger]

Actually, I agree completely with WW. I'm just having a hard time expressing myself since my English isn't that good, so I'm gonna stop flaming now since it isn't very constructive.

[Mayhem]

A lot of people would have a hard time trusting someone trying to bend something so obvious as that static on WD, just to get a reason to do it.

I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish by defending this type of behaviour. The static is quite clear: You're hired to round up criminals for the City Watch. If you help the City Watch do their job, which is to keep the law, you are working towards getting the city more lawful. What does that make you other than lawful?

Hey, if you had to join the watch, and got paid a small regular wage, and were rounding up criminals because it was your duty, then sure, that's absolutely lawful behaviour.

But this was bounty hunting, pure and simple. They had a price on their head, people who wanted the coin could hand them into the watch. It was no different from rat-catching, frankly, except the rats were bigger (and had possesions worth nicking)

But we are getting bogged down in a specific case.

I say scrap scripted alignment changes, and instead the static records who completed it. A DM reviewing the logs can then decide if they need to give the persons compelteing that static regularly an alignment shift, but more importantly can ask the person why they were doing it.

[

You say that, but I guarantee if we started a thread in general about what certain alignments can or cannot do, there would be serious disagreement. It always used to be the number 1 source of flamewars on the WOTC D&D forums. Alignment isn't as clear cut as you liek to pretend it is, and if 2 different builders have different opinions about how evil stealing candy froma baby actually is, then the players are left with nothing but guesswork to go on.

[Keith Mac]

The context at which you are perceiving alignment is entirely superficial; but alignment, as presented in DnD, is not. Intentions do not denote right and wrong, they only denote assumption. And if someone assumes incorrectly, an unintended consequence ensues. In fact, it is this very same facet of alignment that poses the intrigue of gothic novels... where well intentioned people are turned and eventually embrace malevolent deeds.

I should have been more clear...by INTENT...I meant to imply the "Players" intent...not the PC's intent which of course is irrelevant. Just like in a novel where the author is the "player" but not the character.

[ballonger]

You say that, but I guarantee if we started a thread in general about what certain alignments can or cannot do, there would be serious disagreement. It always used to be the number 1 source of flamewars on the WOTC D&D forums. Alignment isn't as clear cut as you liek to pretend it is, and if 2 different builders have different opinions about how evil stealing candy froma baby actually is, then the players are left with nothing but guesswork to go on.

Ok, that's not really correct. Alignment is very much so covered in the books. What those flamewars always was about was personal opinions and likes and dislikes. You wanna understand the good and evil axis? Read the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness respectively. Then someone will go "Well I don't agree with what's in those books" and the war's on.

[Mayhem]

You wanna understand the good and evil axis? Read the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness respectively.

Are, so you are sayign that to understand the alignments correctly, you have to actually read something beyond the core books?

IE, its not sufficiently clear in the core books to avoid disagreement?

[ballonger]

Perhaps. Personally I think the core books are clear enough.

[ballonger]

Of course there is the not so remote possibility that people understand but just don't agree with the D&D rules. In the same manner as smokepowder isn't being implemented because some people find the thought of a setting close to renaissance silly. And just as ALFA for a long time was a low magic setting.

[Mulu]

Well, as I just posted in another thread, alignment is a broken feature in D&D. It was designed for a simple fantasy world of moral absolutes with little actual roleplaying where lawful good humans slay chaotic evil orcs by rolling dice. ALFA's playstyle is too complex for that approach. Best to involve alignment as little as possible.

And now we have even more evidence of why we should involve alignment in statics as little as possible. It leads to metagaming, and apparently a broken gameworld.

[White Warlock]

Well, as I just posted in another thread, alignment is a broken feature in D&D. It was designed for a simple fantasy world of moral absolutes with little actual roleplaying where lawful good humans slay chaotic evil orcs by rolling dice. ALFA's playstyle is too complex for that approach. Best to involve alignment as little as possible.

And now we have even more evidence of why we should involve alignment in statics as little as possible. It leads to metagaming, and apparently a broken gameworld.

No, you just have more evidence that metagaming happens in ALFA, which we already knew anyway. The goal should not be to remove everything that can potentially be exploited, but to design the game for those who intend on playing ALFA according to its intent, and to punish/ban those who opt not to.

As previously discussed so many times, if we build to keep the cheaters out, we build a box with no windows and no doors... and they'll still get in. In fact, they'll be the only ones there.

[dergon darkhelm]

Refocus:


Should ALFA in the NWN2 platform have alignment changes scripted for static quests and/or PC behavior?

Yes....let the builders build it and let the individual builder's interpretation of the static determine the shift and it's intensity. The builder is putting a lot of effort in server development and should be given some latitude.

No.....The limitations of dialogue options and nuance in PC motivations makes it impossible for a builder to wholely anticipate the reasoning of many PCs/player. Therefore, alignment changes should left to DMs to be given after observation of player behavior over time.

Maybe...... the ALFA community might come to some consenus of a set of actions that are reflective of alignment changes, even if only done a single time. After a period of discussion, such guidelines could be made available. Within that set of predetermined guidelines, builders could script alignment changes that would be understood by the player community.





((i vote maybe))

[White Warlock]

I vote yes. I'm not keen with maybe because we're already posing enough obstacles to development. Let them build according to how they deem their mods should look and feel. Seriously, who's doing the work and who's looking for handouts?

[Mulu]

Well, I'm all for encouraging building, but I'm also all for encouraging retention. Static alignment hits are a point of contention that can lead to frustration and playing elsewhere, without any countervailing benefit. I mean really, what's the *benefit* to having a static alignment hit, given that reasonable people can differ as to whether or not it should occur?

[Cynon]

Sorry I just posting this again cos I think a lot of you read some bits and not others depeding on what you want to judge a person on and then start attacking or something.

I think maybe i'm just being antagonistinc because it's so easy with the mentality I see on these forums. You just don't meet people like you guys where I come from. I Just can't take you seriously. Anyhow here it is again. Read it this time.

To be truthful i was ICly acting my alignment

To remain neutral I was doing things both lawful and chaotic, yeppers. And if those things that I was doing ICly to make my alignment change were put there by someone who scripted them because they also thought doing those things, that I was doing, should have been giving out an alignment change. Therefore by knowing my PC's alignment was neutral and that was what I was trying to be. I was doing things 'in balance' to retain 'the balance' of lawful/chaotic neutrality. Thus if you think my methods of staying neutral were OOC you believe the Scripted alignment changes were OOC and hence they shouldn't have been there, thus I would have remained neutral in anycase!

I have acted perfectly within the rules of what is decent and rule abiding within ALFA and without pissing non present DM's off on a near daily basis for approximately 2 years. The alignment changes were complained about constantly and quite honestly I may be exaggerating... possibly I just killed some thugs in waterdeep once and walked up to TLR and got my chaotic points back by nicking some swords from the 12's garrison and sort of made a bigger deal about it than it was just to make a semi ironic point of view on this thread.

You'd have to go back through 2 years of logs to check on this cos i'm not sure and it's all hazy in here. If you find anything go ban me, not that i'm really playing much in ALFA at the moment and anyhow I don't really care about any of it.

Silly people.

[Magonushi]

I dunno about you but I plan to have a character who isn't a cardboard cut-out, and has motivations, which aren't entirely obvious.

I vote no.