Do warlocks fit into the Forgotten Realms?

[Fionn]

How did 3.5 remove?

[Nyarlathotep]

Warlocks are not present in the PHB2, they are in Complete Arcane. For this reason I said I thought it was unlikely they would be included in any Realms fiction any more than Wu Jens, Favored Souls, Hexblades, et

Acording to the excerpt on the WotC website all those classes did appear in the PHB2 (unless they were cut before publishing...I only read the book off the shelf in the store myself and don't remember)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a

[Wild Wombat]

But again, balance issues are off-topic here. This is not a poll on whether or not Warlocks should be removed.

Heh. Then change one vote from "Yes they fit in" to "Don't know".

Or, better yet, change it to "Who cares."

[Mayhem]

How did 3.5 remove?

In the case of rangers, it pushed their combat style (TWF or Archery) back to 2nd level. Can't speak for the other classes.

(at the same time, though, it reduced TWF to only requiring 1 feat, so a rogue who would have taken a single ranger level for Twf, can now take a single fighter level instead...)

Didn't know about the potential for +4 Dex at 1st level. That is rather much, and *very* tempting for any dex based pc whether they be rogue or fighter.

If it really is as simple as that, it might be worth looking into restriciting its ability to be taken as a multiclass, even if only by IC limiting rather than coding.

[Leareth]

Heh, In my view anything fits in FR. Of course my view is skquewed a bit since I've played around in FR since you could find portals to London and run around attacking double decker busses and trash musems. So on the scale of things the warlock is not so improbable. Also given the curent cannon I don't think it's so odd. You frequently get far odder occurances and events so this class slowly showing up on the scene wouldn't be out of line. I would still like to point out sorcerers, people had the same reaction to them to a certain extent. Where are they now?

Leareth

[Booch]

Hi everyone,
Okay, stop me if you've heard this one before... but a warlock and a rogue walk into a bar... wait... that's not it.

So... ALFA is a roleplay based environment, and we're worried about people multiclassing into Warlock for the added (+4 to dex). If a Warlock is roleplayed properly will they not either start life as a Warlock and drift into another class (which in a RP sense is fairly understandable) or they will have to have some sort of IC encounter that enfuses them with the Warlocky powers (assuming if they've had them their whole life, they would've started out as a Warlock). Now I don't know about other PC's on ALFA... but I haven't had a whole bunch of interaction with fiends.
So should the roleplay nature of our little community not limit the number of munchkinny tactics with this class?

[Grand Fromage]

No, they don't fit into established FR canon at all, because of spellfire. Spellfire is supposed to be this uber-amazing gift of Mystra that very few people ever possess, and gives them ungodly abilities. Warlocks are a base class that get spellfire +++++ just like that, no problem. It doesn't work.

[Snoring Moose]

This question makes me realise I don't fully understand what makes something canon.

Is it really the case that we ALFAN's can simply vote on something and it becomes FR canon ? Doesn't it have to be....er...canonised by someone official (in which case we just ask them for their call on this) ?

[Leareth]

Well for true FR canon we don't have a say but for ALFA FR canon we to. The published canon, warlocks are starting to show up though so *shrugs*.

Leareth

[Ronan]

Well for true FR canon we don't have a say but for ALFA FR canon we to. The published canon, warlocks are starting to show up though so *shrugs*.

Well, there is one mention of it with a star elf (not even technically in FR or Toril), and we don't know if they ment an actual warlock or if that was just some title. I find it kind of unlikely that non-core classes will be present very often in FR lore, unlike sorcerers they are not considered core D&D classs.

The question to me isn't whether or not it fits into FR. It does fit in, technically, since FR has links to many other planes and beings that could provide warlocky powers. Its that it should be extremely rare, far rarer than tieflings, aasimar, or any of the "rare" things we argue about including or not. The multiclass temptations mean if it is allowed as-is, we'll probably get far more warlocks than we would want. If I ever see some warlocks sitting around a campfire saying "So, which arch-devil did you sell your soul to for power?" I'm going to puke. Overall I wish it was a PrC, but oh well.

I also really hoped to include spellfire in ALFA2, in a restricted fashion, but realistically I probably won't have time.

[White Warlock]

This is a rather difficult topic for me to objectively participate in, just as it is difficult for Mik to objectively participate in a drow discussion. Nonetheless, i'll give it a shot.

Leareth is correct, in that warlocks are showing up in the published canon, but that isn't likely to influence anyone here. What most will be influenced by are old indications of warlocks in Faerun, and there are some.

Some years ago, for purely selfish reasons, i tried to find warlock references in Forgotten Realms. I found 4 definite references and one iffy reference. I cannot recall all of them, but here are the ones i do recall:

• If you have the FR Atlas, you'll note at the edge of the forest that is near the Troll Hills (I believe that was the location), there is a Warlock Ruins or something like that.
  
  At WoTc, there is a reference to a frost warlock as the cause of some glacier in FR. The details escape me.
  
  There was a reference to a warlock during the Godswar, although i remember nothing about that one.

On these alone, warlocks are in the history of FR and they are being found in the present through recently published FR canon.

The poll presented here was posted with a bias, unfairly influencing the voting process. In order for people to vote on something fairly, they need to be informed... not misinformed. I call this poll to be considered invalid.

[darrenhfx]

Heh I agree that the wordng of the poll may not be spot on, there is validity in its premise. I think a series of question should be asked... maybe not in poll form (and this is occuring in a number of threads):

1. Is there enough/any FR canon info on the class?

2. Is the etiology of the class such that it dictates or influences its distribution?

3. Do either of these answers determine whether or not the class viable as a playable class for ALFA?

[Ronan]

Umm, WW, a warlock is a title. I'm sure you'll find some wizards called sorcerers before the sorcerer was a class option as well. That doesn't mean they were refering to a 3rd edition sorcerer, its just a name. You find wizards refered to as high mages who don't practice elven high magic, archmages who aren't actually archmages, fighters called swashbucklers before the swashbuckler class was introduced, etc.

Naturally it can be included in FR, FR has many portals to many places. Nearly anything could be included, the issue is if its something very rare and out-of-place that it shouldn't be a player-class. Its fortunate that the Complete Arcane warlocks aren't mentioned specifically actually, since then they could be mentioned as being rare or nearly non-existant. At least if its ambiguous and unmentioned, there are grounds for including the class without conflicting with canon. If, however, the FRCS says "there are a handful of Warlocks in the Realms", I'd push to disallow them just like I would fey'ri or statically spawned baneliches.

[RangerDeWood]

Despite my utter hatred for the Warlock class, I do believe they could exist in Faerun. Of all of the major campaign settings, the Forgotten Realms has the most dealings with the outer planes (see: Time of Troubles) and so there could be interactions with demons and devils that would allow for warlocks. There are already plane-touched denizens, especially in Calimshan and Mulhorand/Unther, as well as powerful evil wizards/sorcerers that deal with demons and devils all the time, so there seems to be no reason why warlocks could not exist.

However, I think the warlock class (as presented in Complete Arcane) is horridly overpowered and easily prone to powergaming. My first encounter with the class was during a PnP session in which one of the players did just that. I have not been able to play NWN2 yet to see how much of the class they put into the game, but I sure as hell don't believe that it should ever be one of the "core" classes.

As far as whether or not ALFA should allow the Warlock as a playable class , the decision has most likely been made. My opinion is that they have no place in ALFA and were only added to the game to draw players of WoW (which has a class of the same name). The RP prerequisites to become a Warlock easily disallow it from ALFA, and if it is allowed then I expect to be allowed to play a planetouched PC. I voted yes because there is reasonable space for them in Faerun, but I do not expect them to be playable in ALFA for the same reasons tieflings and genasi aren't playable.

Then again, if ALFA has decided that planetouched are in then my first PC is going to be a LE Tiefling Warlock.

[White Warlock]

Assassins used to be in FR. Then, when the manuals were rewritten, it took more than a year before WoTC came by with this rationale that all the assassins were destroyed during the Godswar.

Now, of course, they're back since assassins were added as a PrC. WoTC is flitty like that.

Umm, WW, a warlock is a title.

Well, actually... no they're not. Of all the various titles for mages, warlock is not one of them. But, this isn't really the type of argument i want to waste our time with.

the issue is if its something very rare and out-of-place that it shouldn't be a player-class.

Well, to be fair, ALL characters ingame are one-of-a-kind. PCs represent the very select few potential heroes of ALFA, and thus are 'very rare' in and of themselves. I do agree, however, that it would be disruptive to immersion if most everyone was a dual-class warlock, just as it would be if everyone was a dual-class druid.

In the end, this is supposed to be a roleplaying community, thus PG-motivated character development and poorly presented bios are things that indicate a person may not be ALFA material. In most cases, warlocks have great dependencies that can be used effectively by DMs in plots and storylines. The most significant 'balancer' of warlocks are these great dependencies, but such can only be felt in a roleplayed arena.

If everyone truly believes that ALFA will not be moderated by the ideals of roleplay, then warlocks should not be allowed. If so, then they should be allowed. It's really up to whether this community believes ALFA will stay true to its ideals.